friendly to our claims; they all seem to think it a duty, on their part, to contribute to provide for the people a place of worship.

Do you consider the number of priests in your diocese to be adequate to the full performance of their religious duties? The priests in my diocese are perhaps somewhat more numerous, in proportion to the number of people to be served, than in most others in Ireland; the reason is, that I have a college at Carlow, to which a lay school is attached, and from the profits of that lay school we have been enabled to put together a very considerable sum of money; and by the interest of this money we are enabled to support a president and vice-president, and a competent number of professors; and hence we are, in my diocese, enabled to educate at Carlow such a number of priests as are wanted immediately in the diocese itself. But I will state, that notwithstanding this supply of ours, which is greater than can be found in any other diocese perhaps in Ireland, we have not yet employed upon the mission, more than two-thirds of the number which would be necessary for the due discharge of the priestly functions amongst the people; the reason however is, not that I could not furnish a sufficient number of priests, because I have at my disposal the college to which I have just alluded, but I do not like to burden the people, who are too much weighed down with other claims, by sending amongst them an additional number of priests, who of course should be supported by their contributions.

In point of fact, is the number of priests existing in your diocese sufficient to enable them to give instruction, in the shape of a sermon, after mass at every chapel within the diocese? The priests in my diocese are so strictly bound by the statutes of the diocese itself, to give religious instruction, that unless in a case of difficulty almost extreme, they cannot avoid giving such instruction; but yet in general it is given by them at great personal inconvenience, for many of them have to celebrate two masses upon each Sunday, one of them at so late an hour as eleven or twelve o'clock. The priest who thus celebrates two masses, is obliged to fast until the labour is ended, and often to ride some miles between one chapel and another; having this heavy labour to perform then, he is not often able, particularly if he be an old man, or of a delicate constitution, to give so much instruction in public as I would wish. However, he must read either the epistle or the gospel of the day, or both, and give a short exposition of them; or if not of them, of a chapter of the common catechism, where the Christian duties are briefly laid down.

Considering the discipline of the Roman Catholic church as applicable to Ireland, do you not conceive that a regular instruction of the people, in the shape of a sermon, is actually necessary? I think it actually necessary; but from the circumstances of the priests, which I have now described, and from the smallness of the chapels, such instruction cannot be given in the most desirable way.

You have alluded to an establishment at Carlow, for the education of priests; how long has that establishment subsisted? That establishment was opened a year or two before the college at Maynooth; I do not know exactly the year.

From whence are its funds derived?-The funds have been derived partly from donations or bequests made to it by individuals, but they have chiefly arisen from the profits of a lay school, which is attached to the college.

Is there then a combined system of education at Carlow, lay and ecclesiastical?-There is.

Are the students of those two classes educated together?— No; they are educated in the same establishment, but not together.

Do you conceive there would be any objection to combine the two branches of the establishment there, the lay and ecclesiastical, referring to the Roman Catholic priesthood ?I should not think that persons destined for the ecclesiastical state, if they have resolved to enter into it, should be mixed with persons whose vocation was not yet decided.

What are the grounds which have induced you to form that opinion ?-The grounds of it are, that I wish ecclesiastics to turn their minds and affections entirely to that state of life upon which they are about to enter, and to keep themselves, as much as may be, separated from those worldly feelings and pursuits, which are lawful, if not commendable in lay persons. I think in a word, that the ecclesiastical character, in order to be perfect, should partake as little as might be of that of a layman; and therefore I do not wish, that ecclesiastics who should live to God, and who are to be employed during life, in inculcating the pure morality of the gospel upon the people, not only by word, but also by example; I do not wish, or think it right, that such persons should be too much mixed with worldly concerns; I conceive that their being so, is opposed to the spirit of the gospel, and to the admonition of the apostle, who says, that nobody who is devoted to the service of the altar should mix himself with secular concerns.

Has the establishment at Carlow been always distinct in its branches, or have those branches ever been combined ?-They

have never been combined more closely than they are at present.

Is there within your knowledge, any college in any other diocese in Ireland, similar in its objects to that of Carlow ?— There is a college in the diocese of Ossory; and there is a seminary, I believe, at Waterford; and there is also a small one at Tuam, those are similar in their object, but they are small; I might say, insignificant compared with ours, for our establishments, comparatively speaking, are very large; the number of students educated in them is very considerable; the establishment of professors is very respectable; and the sciences taught by them are the same as those taught at Maynooth, or at any other public establishment; in a word we have a regular professor of theology, of sacred scripture, one of moral and rational philosophy, one also of natural philosophy, besides teachers of the classics; such an establishment as that, comprising so many professors, could not be had in a seminary unprovided with very considerable funds, therefore it is that those other seminaries are very small compared with ours.

Do you mean, that there are courses of scientific instruction, both pure mathematics and experimental philosophy?— Pure mathematics and experimental philosophy are taught at our college, in the same manner as they are taught at Trinity College.

What is the number of students ?-It varies between 100 and 120, including the lay gentlemen.

How many of those are educating for priests ?-The number destined for the priesthood varies from sixty to eighty.

What is the expense attending the education of a boy at the college of Carlow ?-We charge them twenty-five guineas a-year for their commons, in which charge we do not consider ourselves as including any thing at all for education. Except those who are educating for the church, all our pupils are obliged to pay five guineas at entrance, and thirty guineas a-year.

What is the whole annual expense ?-I should think, the education of a lay boy would cost between forty guineas and fifty pounds a-year.

Do you prefer this plan of education to that at Maynooth? -The plan of education, at our college, is very nearly similar to that at Maynooth, because there also the classics are taught, though they instruct ecclesiastics only; and as to the sciences, we teach the same course in both establishments.

Do you prefer a system of education, that would require this expense, to one entirely charitable, like that at Maynooth ?

Yes, I would; but, however, if you were to charge the students coming from several dioceses in Ireland, as much as they are obliged to pay at our house, you would exclude them altogether, as they have not the means wherewith to pay; for instance in the north, where the Catholics are, generally speaking, few in number, and very poor, I do not suppose you would find a number of persons inclined to enter into the church, who could afford to pay forty, or perhaps twenty pounds a-year during their studies. Not so in Leighlin and Kildare, for we have a great number of substantial farmers, who are able to pay what is charged for education of their sons.

Would you prefer the system of education at your college, to the system of education in the foreign universities?—I feel a partiality for the education at a regular university, because I have been educated at such a place myself; however, it is possible that our system of education, for the generality of ecclesiastical students, may be better than that of an university abroad; but I think, for certain classes of persons, an education at an university, where there is more emulation and more zeal, a longer time allowed for study, greater rewards and distinctions held out, would be far preferable to that of a private seminary or college, such as Carlow and Maynooth.

Do you think that so far as it is practicable, a less eleemosynary system of education would be preferable for the clergy?-As far as it is practicable, I should think so; but am of opinion, that much caution would be required in making such an arrangement as would burden the students with expense.

If there were any arrangement for the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy by the state, such as would make situations in the church an object for persons in a certain rank in life; do not you think that the persons who went would be able to pay for their education ?—I think that such arrangement would probably have that effect.

What is the number of years which each student is obliged to reside at Carlow, previous to his ordination ?—The students of my diocese are obliged to reside in Carlow at least six years; in general they reside for a longer time, but the course which is absolutely necessary for a student in the college, is only of five years.

Are they ordained for other dioceses besides that, after having received their education at that seminary ?—Yes.

For any diocese in Ireland?-For any diocese in Ireland; we receive them from any diocese, when they come recommended to us by their bishop.

And a degree, or a gradating at that seminary, is considered

the same as a degree taken at Maynooth? We have not the power of conferring degrees either at Maynooth or at Carlow; there is a testimonial signed by the president, of the student having passed through the regular course of studies, but it is not what we call a degree; a kind of proceeding sanctioned by law, which gives to a man a degree, is what we cannot have.

Is there no such power at Maynooth?-No such power at Maynooth; it is a power, I believe, generally derived from the King's act of foundation; in Ireland there is no such thing existing, except at the university, that is, at Trinity College; in fact, the power of conferring degrees is scarcely ever given to colleges, it is confined to universities; they are only reli gious orders in the church which have had the power, from time to time, of granting something equivalent to a degree.

Is a testimonial given at Carlow considered equivalent to a testimonial received at Maynooth ?-Yes, it is.

Is it considered also the same thing when given at the other seminaries in the dioceses of Waterford, Ossory, and Tuam? -A man who gets a certificate of having fulfilled the course of studies adopted in any of those seminaries, is thereby entitled to be employed upon the mission; but it is a matter that depends upon the opinion of the public, whether he will stand as high in their estimation when he has fulfilled his studies at another seminary, as if he had studied at Carlow; I do conceive that the generality of students who have completed their studies at Carlow, are much esteemed throughout Ireland.

Can you inform the Committee, what the number may be at other seminaries?—I really cannot; I believe they are few. Is it necessary for a person to have taken any degree, in order for him to be made a bishop ?-It is not necessary.

Then, of course, persons educated at Maynooth and Carlow are qualified to become bishops ?-Yes; and there are several bishops in Ireland who have been there educated.

Have the majority of the Irish prelates been educated at Maynooth, or at the foreign universities?—The majority of our present prelates have been educated at the foreign universities; but I suppose, in a few years, we are not likely to have any bishops but such as have been educated at home; I am myself the youngest prelate in Ireland who has received a foreign education.

Can you inform the Committee of any other circumstances, besides the facilities afforded by the establishments at Maynooth and Carlow, which lead you to think that students will not repair to foreign universities for education?-I do not know any other.