You mentioned, that in filling up vacancies in parishes, the bishops sélected those of their diocese whom they thought the most deserving; do you mean to say they never go out of the diocese to select? They have a power of doing so, but I have not known any case wherein they have exercised that power; I should not consider myself at liberty to go out of the diocese where I live, because the clergymen officiating within the diocese consider, and I also consider, that they have a right to such livings as may happen to become vacant; so that to bring in a stranger, and exclude them, would in my mind be unjust.

Are they first designated for the dioceses, by performing the duties of coadjutor ?They are designated for the dioceses at the time of their ordination, which must be previous to their being appointed to serve in that capacity.

Do they always serve the office of curates or coadjutors before they are made parish priests?I have not known, in the diocese where I live, any priest to be appointed to a parish, till he had served for some time, I might say for some years, as curate.

Is there a chapter in your diocese ?-There is no chapter in my diocese.

Are there chapters in many of the Catholic dioceses?→→→ There are.

Does the bishop name to the offices in the chapter ?-To all offices, except to that of dean.

Who names to that of dean? The Pope appoints to the office of dean.

Is not the office of dean in general attached to a particular parish in the diocese ?-Not attached to a particular parish generally.

Have the bishops in Ireland, who are appointed by the Pope after domestic nomination, been nominated in Ireland by the chapter, or by the inferior clergy?-In no case have they been nominated or appointed by the chapter alone; but they have in some cases been elected by chapters, and then they have been recommended by the metropolitan and suffragan bishops of the province in which the vacancy existed. In other cases, such persons have been elected by the parish priests of the vacant diocese, and the metropolitan and suffragan bishops concurred in the election; in other places, they have been elected by all the serving clergy of the vacant diocese; and the person so elected by those clergymen has afterwards been recommended by the bishops; for instance, I was recommeded to the See of Rome by the parish priests of the diocese in which I live, and by the metropolitan and all his suffragans.

Do you mean, the recommendation of the metropolitan and all the suffragans followed the recommendation by the parish priests? They happened, in my case, to be, as it were, simultaneous; the metropolitan and suffragans resolved to recommend me to the Pope, and this resolution they adopted and signed; but knowing that the clergy were about to assemble to elect a person, they kept the matter secret till such election did take place: the clergy assembled, and they also elected me; their instrument of election was placed in the hands of the metropolitan; he transmitted it to Rome, with that of himself and suffragans, and the appointment followed.

When you state, that objection would be felt to any interference of the state in the nomination of Catholic bishops, either directly or indirectly, do you mean to say, that any objection of a similar kind would lie against making it imperative that no bishop could be made in Ireland, except he received his nomination from one or other of those bodies ?—I should have no objection to that; on the contrary, I should be glad of it.

To reserve to the see of Rome the power of institution only? -The power of institution, in this way: in Ireland, they do not elect one only; they transmit always to Rome the names of three persons, so that the Pope has the power to choose between them; the names of the persons elected are placed one after the other, on a piece of paper, and he has, in every instance, appointed the person whose name happened to be at the head of the list: however, I have stated before, that the Pope has the power to appoint, independent of that recommendation; but we would be glad, that the right which we now exercise, by courtesy or usage, were secured to us by a concordat.

Has not he done so, in some instances, among the Irish prelates?-Certainly not.

Was the present Catholic primate elected by any body in Ireland?—He was, I believe, recommended to the see of Rome by every Catholic bishop in Ireland, except one.

Was he a bishop in Ireland before he was appointed?-No; he had been at the Irish college at Salamanca previous to his appointment; upon the breaking up of that establishment, he returned to Ireland; and after he had been here between one year and two (the see of Armagh happening to be vacant at that time), the prelates in Ireland, with many of whom he was acquainted, considered him a very fit and proper person to fill that vacancy; and as they had a meeting at that time in Kilkenny, upon some business, I believe to protest against a rescript which came from Rome, signed by some officer there,

called Quarantotti, with reference to a negative power in the Crown to appoint to bishoprics in Ireland; I think it was there, I do not speak positively, that the bishops agreed to recommend Doctor Curtis as a proper person to fill the see of Armagh; and as there were some bishops not then present, these were applied to, and they allowed their names to be affixed to the instrument: it was upon that recommendation that the present Catholic primate was appointed.

In that rescript you allude to, was not the power of the Crown to interfere with the nomination of bishops, recognised as not inconsistent with the discipline of the Catholic church? It was recognised by a man who outstepped his authority, by this Quarantotti, who was incompetent to decide upon a matter of so much moment; but though it had happened to have proceeded from higher authority in Rome, we would have acted as we did; that is, the prelates would, for I was not then a bishop; they would have remonstrated as they did.

How long have you been a bishop?-Unhappily too long, for my own peace; six years.

Are the Committee to understand from you, that this rescript of Quarantotti's did not come from the see of Rome ? -It did come from the see of Rome, but the Pope at that time was prisoner in France, and he vested his spiritual jurisdiction in several individuals in Rome, first in one and then provisionally in others; so that in case the first and second and third happened to be removed by the French from Rome, some person might remain to administer the affairs of the church; the first individual, and I believe the second, who were entitled to do so, were removed by the French; this Quarantotti, who was an obscure individual at that time, happened to remain; he had those powers, and began to exercise them, and not being at all acquainted with our affairs, gave this rescript, upon an application being made to him by some interested person; and as soon as we received it, we protested against it.

He was a Cardinal, was he not ?-He was afterwards appointed Cardinal; he had some merit with the Pope, but his appointment was not the reward of his conduct towards us.

What rank did he hold in the church at that time ?—I do not know exactly; I believe he was what is called A Roman Monsignore; he was attached to some collegiate church, or held some situation in a public office.

But although you state what your own objections would be, and the unanimous objections of the Irish prelates to such a rescript, you are aware that the principle of that rescript

has been acted upon in the concordats which have taken place between the Pope and the Protestant states; that it is a doćtrine recognised by the see of Rome itself, in treaties it has made?--I stated, with reference to the Pope treating with the Emperor of Russia and the King of Prussia, that I am unacquainted with the circumstances of their countries, or the motives which influenced his Holiness. I can therefore neither approve or disapprove of what may have been done, but as regards my own country, I am quite decided.

Was not the principle upon which that rescript, of Quarrantotti's was founded, the principle to which you say the Catholic prelates would object?-Being ignorant of those treaties, and the provisions of them, I cannot say whether the principle was the same or not.

Is not the general principle in that rescript the interference of a Protestant sovereign in the appointment of bishops?— Circumstances affect principles, so as almost to change them in their operation; I could not therefore recognise the principle, because it may be so modified, as to be changed altogether in its operation, from what it would be, in the view we take of it, as regards our own country.

Do not you think there might be great objections to making the appointment to Roman Catholic prelacies in Ireland, an elective appointment? Yes, it is upon that account I hesitated so much to answer a question that was put to me, because knowing well as I do, from the history of the church, the great evils which arise from the right of election being vested in bodies, if such a right of election were settled regularly by concordat, it should be liable to checks; and in fact such as would descend very minutely, both into the quality of the electors, and the number and description of them; but that is a matter which would depend upon the prudence of the persons arranging such concordat, about which I might never be consulted; therefore, feeling as I do, that it is a subject of great difficulty, and one of which I myself would be scarcely able to treat, I should much rather withhold the opinions I entertain about it.

The Committee infer from your last answer, and from a former answer, that you think this arrangement could only be satisfactorily made by a concordat with the Pope ?—I think so, but I think such concordat could be most easily made; and I should be most anxious that it were made, because it would secure to us always a domestic prelacy, and it would remove from us the possibility of the Pope ever interfering more than he now does in the appointments to our church.

Do you think that the Catholic church of Ireland is more

or less independent of the Pope, than other Roman Catholic churches existing in other countries?-I think we are more independent in a certain way, and more dependant in another. We are more dependant, because the Pope does not at present, and he could scarcely presume to nominate any one except such person as we recommend; we are therefore very independent, because we have the election of our own prelates in our own hands, and it would be morally impossible to take from us that right. But we are more dependant than other churches, in another way; for instance, in the church of France, the king has the appointment of the bishops, the Pope has only the power to give institution; there the church is national, the appointment being in the hands of the sovereign. We are more dependant, therefore, than the French church, because the Pope has the naked right of appointing in our church, without consulting us; and though I say it would be morally impossible for him to exercise that right, yet I think it an evil that he has it; and his having it, makes our church in that sense more dependant upon him than the church of France is, because there the Pope is obliged to give institution to the person if found fit, who is recommended by the sovereign.

Veneris 25° die Martii, 1825.

LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.

The Right Reverend James Doyle, D. D. Titular Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin, again called in; and further Examined.

IN what and how far does the Roman Catholic profess to obey the Pope?-The Catholic professes to obey the Pope in matters which regard his religious faith, and in those matters of ecclesiastical discipline, which have already been defined by the competent authorities,

Does this obedience detract from what is due by the Catholic to the state?-Not in the slightest degree; on the contrary, as the laws of God, which the Pope does enforce amongst Catholics, ordains that we should pay obedience to the existing government of the country where we dwell, so the obedience we owe the Pope only tends to confirm us in our allegiance to such government.

Does that justify the objection that is made to Catholics,