berate upon any matter which he would submit to our consideration.

Supposing there was a representative of the Pope in this country, would the Roman Catholic clergy have any objection to allow the power of such representative to be strictly defined?-Instead of being opposed to it, they would most anxiously desire that his power should be strictly defined; and there is no class of persons within the kingdom who would profit so much from that specific definition of his power, as the Catholic bishops.

Would there be any objection to allow the King of Great Britain the power of refusing any representative from the Pope to reside in these kingdoms?-His Majesty is prevented, as I conceive the law now to stand, from holding any communication with the Pope, or permitting any envoy or nuncio of the Pope to reside within these kingdoms.

Supposing the law was to be altered, would you then have any objection to His Majesty having that power?-I cannot see how we could have any objection to it, because if such a person was resident in the country, the ordinary business which we now transact at Rome could be transacted with him; and if he were to be removed from the country, or not permitted to come into it, we should only continue to communicate with Rome, in the same manner as we now do.

Would there be any objection, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, for the legislature to demand from the legate, before he is allowed to exercise his functions, a solemn written promise, not to attempt any thing against the laws of the kingdom, or to continue in England or Ireland beyond the pleasure of the King, or of the privy council ?-To the first part of what is stated, so far from having any objection to it, we should be glad that such a demand were made of him. As to the second part, it is a matter about which we should not, properly speaking, form any opinion. Whether the King were to have such a right or not, is a matter about which, I think, we need not in any way be consulted; it would rest between His Majesty and the court of Rome, and we would, as I conceive, have nothing to do with it; but as to the requiring a pledge by oath, or otherwise, from the nuncio who might be placed in this country, that he would not in anywise interfere with the temporal or civil concerns either of His Majesty, or of His Majesty's subjects, so far from having an objection to that, we should rejoice at it, because we would not wish that he should so interfere in any way. We would also be glad that such a declaration were made by him, be

cause that would go far to satisfy the minds of those who differ from us in religion, as to the sentiments which we entertain with regard to the Pope, or his envoys.

Can the court of Rome, of its own mere volition, give orders for levying tithes, taxes, impositions, alms, contributions, or any money for bulls of pardon or indulgences, upon the Catholic people of Ireland?—I state distinctly, that the Pope has no power in any shape or form, or for any purpose whatever, or under any pretence or pretext, or in lieu of any bull, rescript or indulgence, or permission, or manner of writing, or otherwise, which he may issue, or which he may direct here, to levy or require from the subjects of this realm any money whatever, or any equivalent for money.

Is it in the power of the Pope to absolve the Catholic people from their oaths of allegiance ?-It is not.

Or to deprive his Majesty the King of his kingdom?—It is not, indeed.

Could any admonition, or excommunication, or interdiction by the Pope, excuse the temporal obedience of the Catholic laity or the Catholic clergy to the King?-Most undoubtedly not.

Could the Pope excommunicate a Roman Catholic holding an office under the Crown, supposing, for instance, the law allowed him to be a judge, for performing the duties of that office, even though a sentence pronounced by him might trench upon the supposed supremacy of the Pope in spiritual matters? If it be a mixed matter, in which civil rights are concerned, certainly such judge could not be molested or excommunicated by the Pope for deciding according to the law, which he was bound by his office to administer.

Is there any jurisdiction, according to the discipline of the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, allowed to the Pope, or to the Pope's legates, in matters concerning marriages ?-In the discipline of the Catholic church, the Council of Trent has limited the degrees of consanguinity, and affinity within which marriages might not be lawfully contracted; for, by the Council of Lateran, held some centuries before, degrees of kindred within which marriages could not be contracted, were extended much more than they are at present. Now we recognise the Pope as the executive power in the Catholic church; and he is, on that account, enabled to execute the laws of general councils. Now, the Council of Trent has decreed, that marriages cannot validly be contracted within certain degrees of kindred; and the Pope, upon a sufficient cause being shewn, and not without it, has power to dispense in those degrees of kindred, and permit the marriage to take

place. A bishop even, independent of the Pope, has, by ancient usage, a right to dispense, in certain circumstances,' with many such impediments as those to which I allude.

Suppose parties have not had recourse to the spiritual courts for those dispensations, is the issue of such marriages illegitimate? We repute it legitimate according to law, and we recognise such issue as the rightful possessors or inheritors of property, but we do not look upon them as legitimate in the ecclesiastical sense; for instance, a son born of such marriage we could not ordain as priest, or consecrate as bishop; but the son of such marriage we would recognise, and it would be our duty so to do, as the legal inheritor of his father's title or estate.

Are there any other disabilities ?-No other occur to me.

Has the Pope the power of legitimizing persons who must be considered as bastards in the ecclesiastical sense?-Such power resides with the Pope, and also in the bishop, in certain cases defined by law, which are very numerous.

By law you mean ecclesiastical law?—Yes.

Is there any jurisdiction, according to the discipline of the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, allowed to the Pope with respect to adultery?-I know of none.

Or perjury?—No, there is not; unless that which every bishop has, namely, a power of excommunicating a person notoriously guilty of it.

The cognizance of all those matters then, it is presumed, belongs to the civil courts ?-Unquestionably.

And there can be no appeal from the decision of the civil courts to the Pope, in cases of adultery or marriage?—No, there is no such appeal at all, that I recollect.

Can any foreigner be appointed to a benefice in Ireland?At present he can. The right of presenting to all the sees in Ireland was vested, by usage or by law, I do not know which, in the Stuart family, previous to their being expelled from these countries; and whilst a descendant of that family resided at Rome, he was accustomed to recommend to the Irish Catholic sees; from the death of the late Pretender till the present time, the right of appointment to bishoprics in Ireland has vested solely and exclusively in the Pope; but, from that period until the present, he has not in any one instance that has come to my knowledge, (and I have made very diligent inquiries upon the subject,) appointed any person, unless such as had been previously recommended to him by some person or persons in this country. The persons who so recommend generally, are the chapter, and where there is no chapter existing, the parochial clergy of the diocese, and the metropo

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litan or suffragan bishops who are of the province where the see happens to be vacant.

Can the Pope unite or incorporate livings in Ireland, without any reference to the bishop?-He can incorporate bishoprics in Ireland, without any reference to any authority here; but it would, on his part, be a stretch of power, against which, were it not done at our desire, we would remonstrate, and it could scarcely take effect; but the naked power is in him; the exercise of that power, however, is another thing, for it would regard the discipline of our church, and upon that, if he attempted to do any thing that did not meet with our full approbation, we should oppose to him what I might call here a constitutional resistance; and he could not easily carry it into effect against our will.

In cases of appeal to the court of Rome, respecting either the incorporation of livings, or the limits of parishes, which it is understood are frequently made?-With regard to the union or division of ecclesiastical livings here, the right of the Pope regards dioceses only, for the union or division of parishes is a right vested by law in the bishops.

If there be any dispute respecting the limits of a parish, the first appeal is to the bishop?—To the bishop.

Then there is an appeal from his decision to the court of Rome?-No; to the Metropolitan, and from him to the Pope; but in those matters appeals are seldom or never made, and if made, not countenanced, for they are only what we call the causæ majores that are referred to Rome, or about which appeals are properly made at Rome.

Can the Pope summon the attendance of any witnesses in such causes?—He might summon them, but to enforce their attendance, is another thing; the practice of the court of Rome in such cases, when testimony is required, always is, to appoint a commission here to take evidence, and to transmit the evidence to Rome.

Can the Pope, or his legate, grant a dispensation to a graduate at any university, at Maynooth for instance, or at any other college, to take his degree at an earlier period than the common forms of the university allow?—I do not know that the Pope has such a power; I think the granting degrees is a privilege generally derived from the King, and not from the Pope, outside the territories of the Pope himself; he has granted to religious orders the power of granting what we call a degree of master in theology, a rank which is equal to that of doctor for instance; but except this, I have known of no case where the Pope has, for the last four centuries, granted to any corporation or individual a power to confer degrees,

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so that the exercise of that right on the part of the Pope, is, in some measure, obsolete; and I can scarcely inform the Committee, what he can or cannot do upon the subject, at present, but I can with great safety say, that the Pope is not disposed to revive a practice which probably he could not, were he so disposed, bring into use.

In the case of the Catholic emancipation being granted, and the Catholics being thereby placed on the same footing with Protestants, as regards civil rights in Ireland, would that make any difference in the ecclesiastical state of Ireland? -I do not suppose it would.

Is there any difference between a country that is considered in the state of a missionary country, and a country regularly under the Catholic church ?-There is a material difference between a missionary country and one governed by a regularly constituted hierarchy; our church in Ireland is of the latter description, and not of the former; but our business with Rome, for the sake of convenience and dispatch, is transacted through the congregation De propaganda Fide, which watches over the missionary countries and their interests; but except that our business is so transacted, and Ireland thereby treated like a missionary country, I see no reason why it should be so considered either at Rome or by ourselves. We, in a word, do not consider our country as a missionary country, such, for instance, as England is, for we have a regularly constituted church.

Then it is not at all upon the ground of those transactions going on, as if Ireland was a missionary country, that the Pope has the nomination of the bishops in Ireland ?-By no means; it is because the right of presenting was vested in a family which is extinct, and then the Pope, as the supreme head of the church, took to himself this right, which was, as it were, in abeyance, and acts upon it in the appointment of bishops, since the extinction of that family; for we do not, and cannot recognise in a prince, or in any number of persons professing a religion different from our own, a right to present to ecclesiastical benefices, if you call them so, or to offices having attached to them the care of souls.

In the case of the question of Catholic emancipation being granted, would there be any objection on the part of the Irish clergy, to an arrangement being made with the court of Rome, by which the nomination to the benefices in Ireland might become purely domestic?-We should be extremely glad, if such an arrangement were entered into, provided that such domestic appointment did not exclude, what we consider as essential to our Catholicism, namely, the right of the Pope to