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Because I know that in many instances the superior clergy do not like the popular election which has taken place by the parish priests.

Have there not been elections by deans and chapters in Ireland? There have.

In which the choice originated with them, and has been confirmed by the See of Rome ?-There have.

To that species of domestic nomination, your former observation does not apply?-No, by inferior clergy I mean to exclude only the bishops.

Do you mean that the bishops would object to the nomination taking place by deans and chapters?—Not by a dean and chapter, but by popular election.

When in the answer in question, you expressed an opinion as to the sense of the Catholic church upon domestic nomination, you meant to confine yourself to one particular_mode of domestic nomination, the election by the inferior clergy?— There are dioceses in which there are no dean and chapter, and in that case the election has been a popular election, by the whole body of parish priests and curates.

To such election you conceive the superior clergy might feel indisposed?-I think they are rather adverse to that mode.

In those cases, where the election was amongst the body of the inferior clergy at large, was there not, in point of fact, a contest between them and the superior order, who claimed a right of postulating a coadjutor bishop, or electing a successor ? -Jealousy sometimes exists.

Are the Catholic laity extremely jealous of the interference of the Pope, in any thing excepting the most purely spiritual matters?-No.

Has there been any interference of the kind, to be jealous of? -Not that I am aware of.

If the Pope did interfere in any thing except what was purely spiritual, would there be any jealousy; there are some things in which the spiritual and the temporal authority are very much mixed; and you hardly know where the spiritual authority begins and where it ends; now in questions of that kind, would not the Catholic laity be disposed to be jealous of the interference of the Pope, if he started beyond what, in the greatest latitude of the term, is called the spiritual part of the question?-It is a question upon which the people of Ireland think very little.

In point of fact, is there any interference in temporal matters by the Pope?-None, that I know of..

Do the Catholics hold, that the Pope has any right to interfere

in temporal affairs? - No; he has no temporal authority in Ireland.

Are there any appeals to the Pope in cases of marriage?—I do not know of any, except to obtain dispensations.

Is not marriage one of the sacraments in the Catholic church? - Yes, it is.

For how many years has your lordship acted as a magistrate, in the county of Meath? - About three years, as long as my father acted as a magistrate, I never took out a commission of the peace.

Your lordship has acted as a grand juror? - Yes.

Have you witnessed, in your county, any unfair prejudice in the administration of justice, as between Catholics and Protestants, in the assize courts and sessions courts?—I do not recollect any instance of prejudice or partiality at this moment. Are the juries composed indiscriminately of Chatholics and Protestants?-Generally moré Protestants than Catholics. They are indiscriminately composed?—Yes; mixed juries. Have you ever heard it objected to the formation of juries, or pannels of juries, that religious party has found its way into the formation of them?--I know, that when the parties are of different religions, there is a distrust.

In what instances, or when?-The question has just recalled to my mind an instance, and a trivial one, in fact, but which will show the feeling of the poorer classes upon this point, at the quarter sessions, where there was a policeman to be tried for an assault; the policeman was a Protestant; the other persons were Catholics; and it was stated, and believed by the Catholic peasantry, that the petit jury were chiefly Protestant.

The policeman was the person to be tried?-There were two actions; there was an action of assault brought against the policeman, and a counter action for assault brought by him against the other party.

Had the policeman a right of challenge upon such an occasion?-If he had, I do not think he availed himself of it.

You say the jury were Protestant chiefly?—I was told chiefly so; but the man was acquitted.

Was the policeman acquitted?-The bill, as against the po liceman, was ignored by the grand jury; the bill, as against the other man, was found by the grand jury; but he was acquitted by the petit jury.

Was the petit jury Protestant or Catholic?-Upon the petit jury, I understand, there were one or two Catholies, but I am not certain; I know it was not exclusively Protestant; and I mention this case merely to show the distrust which the lower

orders have in the administration of justice, when the parties are of different religions.

But the policeman was never brought to trial? The bill was ignored, as to him.

Is that the only instance of which you have heard?—In conversation, I have heard of many.

Has your lordship observed, among the lower classes of Catholics, a disposition to apply rather to Catholic magistrates than to Protestants, for redress of injuries they may conceive themselves to have sustained?—I think, in general, they have more confidence when they see both parties united; and that is one of the great advantages which, I think, has resulted from petty sessions.

Have any instances come within your knowledge, in which they have gone to a Catholic magistrate more distant, instead of to a Protestant nearer, before the establishment of the petty sessions?-I do not know myself, but I believe it sometimes happens.

Do you think, that the circumstance of the exclusion of Catholics from the office of sheriff, tends to cast any doubt upon the administration of the law, through the medium of juries, returned by sheriffs so appointed?--I do, particularly amongst the lower orders.

Do you think, that that exclusion so existing, has, in point of fact, produced an impression upon the minds of the Catholics in Ireland?-I think, that as long as Catholics are excluded from the office of sheriff, and thereby prevented from forming juries, the Catholic population will not have the same confidence in the juries that it otherwise would have.

Are not Catholics sub-sheriffs?-They are eligible, I believe. Is it not the sub-sheriff that summons all the petit juries, in point of fact and in practice ?--Yes.

And Catholics do serve upon the petit juries ?—They do.

Is not the sub-sheriff, where he does interfere in summoning juries, only a ministerial officer acting under the authority of the high sheriff?I should fancy so.

So long as the high sheriff is necessarily a Protestant, do you not conceive that some degree of distrust must exist with regard to juries, even though they are appointed through the medium of a Catholic sub-sheriff? I do.

Is there not, generally speaking, a very fair representation of the Catholic property upon the grand juries?-In the county of Meath, very fair indeed.

Does not that extend to petit juries?—Yes, I believe it does. In point of number, is there not generally a majority of Ca

tholics upon the petit juries in the county of Meath?-Very often; I believe I may say generally.

Is the sub-sheriff in Meath, Catholic or Protestant?-I do not know.

Are you aware, at any period, whether he was or not?-I believe, last year, he had been a Catholic, but I have no knowledge of it.

So that, in point of fact, where the usage may have been to appoint indiscriminately a Catholic or a Protestant, your lordship has not considered it at all material, or of any consequence to inquire, what the profession of faith of the officer was?--I have never asked the question.

Mercurii, 16° die Martii, 1825.

LORD BINNING IN THE CHAIR.

The Right Reverend James Doyle, D. D., Titular Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin, called in; and Examined.

You are the Roman Catholic Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin ?-I am.

According to the principles which govern the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, has the Pope any authority to issue commands, ordinances, or injunctions, general or special, without the consent of the King?—He has.

If he should issue such orders, are the subjects of His Majesty, particularly the clergy, bound to obey them ?-The orders which he has a right to issue must regard things that are of a spiritual nature; and when his commands regard such things, the clergy are bound to obey them; but were he to issue commands regarding things not spiritual, the clergy are not in anywise bound to obey them.

Does it not happen frequently, that there must be such an intermixture of spiritual and temporal power in such cases, that it is very difficult to know where the spiritual power ends, and where the temporal power begins ?-Such difficulties have occurred from time to time; but I conceive, that at present, and even for some centuries past, the limits between the temporal and spiritual things, which such commands of the Pope might affect, are so well ascertained, that no mistake could, morally speaking, possibly at present occur.

Is the authority of the Pope in spiritual matters, absolute or limited ?-It is limited.

Is it limited by the authority of councils?-It is limited by decrees of councils already passed; it is limited by usage, also, in this respect, that when he directs any decree respecting local discipline to any nation whatsoever, beyond the limits of his own territory, (I mean by his own territory, what is called the Patrimony of St. Peter, or the Papal States,) the assent of the bishops of such country is necessary, in order that his decree have effect.

Would it be possible, according to the discipline of the Roman Catholic church, to hold a council in Ireland, without the consent of the Pope ?-It would be possible to hold a council in Ireland, without the consent or the knowledge of the Pope; but such decrees of that council, if it were a national, or even a provincial one, as would regard faith or discipline, would not have force, unless they were approved of or sanctioned, after being passed here, by the Pope; but every bishop, within his own diocese, has the power of holding a diocesan synod or council, the decrees of which have force, independent of the Pope, and without his being made acquainted with them.

In the event of what is generally called Catholic Emancipation being granted, and an incorporation of the Catholics with the government of the country, would the Roman Catholic church consider it an usurpation on the part of the King, to order councils to be held for the regulation of the Roman Catholic church, in matters of discipline?-We do not recognise an authority in any lay person whatsoever, to convene a council, or to order one to be held, unless he do so at the desire of, or in conjunction with, the ecclesiastical authority.

That, under no circumstances, could take place?—I do not know that were His present Majesty to wish that a council were held, and to signify such His Majesty's pleasure to the Catholic bishops in Ireland, in such case, I have no doubt, but they might hold, and even would hold, such council.

Would such council be, according to the laws of the Roman Catholic church, absolutely illegal, without the consent of the Pope?-No; but the decrees of such council would have no validity, unless they were approved of and sanctioned by the Pope; however, the holding of such council would be perfectly legal. The Committee are not to understand, by what I have said, that we would recognise in His Majesty a right to convene such council, or to order it to be held; but only that we, as subjects obedient to His Majesty, and willing, in all things lawful, to conform to His Majesty's will, that we would, upon an intimation made to us, cheerfully hold a council, and deli

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