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In point of fact, in cities and towns corporate, are there not persons of independent personal property, who only exercise their franchise by reason of a forty-shilling freehold ?--I can only speak of Dublin; I know nothing scarcely beyond Dublin; and I thought the qualification for a freeholder, to exercise his franchise in Dublin, must be twenty pounds; I have myself no freehold in Dublin.

If any measure were adopted in places like Dublin, which limited the freehold right, would not the effect of that be, to give an undue and unfair preponderance to the corporate franchise of freemen?--I should suppose of course it would.

Would any measure that increased the corporate power of the freemen, be a measure that would excite discontent?--Clearly it would; great discontent.

You possess landed property in Ireland?--I do.

Have you yourself ever made any freeholders upon that property?---No, I have not.

Do you think, considering the manner in which freeholders are made in Ireland, which is entirely by the volition of the landlord, and the registering of them generally at his expense, and that they are carried up to the hustings to vote for whatever candidate the landlord chooses, just in the same way that the same person would carry his live stock to market, that under those circumstances, they possess the same feeling with respect to the elective franchise that they do in this country?--I should think they do not; they are driven up like sheep, to vote; I should think they do not possess the same feelings; I do not know, however, what the feelings are in this country.

Are you aware that in this country, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, a man is a freeholder by right of a property he possesses in fee ?---I am told so.

Does not he in that respect differ very much from the Irish freeholder, who is totally dependant for his franchise, upon his landlord ?---Certainly.

Should you, as a proprietor, think your own power and influence diminished by having the elective franchise raised from forty shillings to twenty pounds a year?--My own power would not; for I have not turned my mind at all to political subjects; I have not even registered my own vote in the county in which I have an estate; my residence in Ireland is confined to Dublin; I have not seen that estate for this ten years.

In what county is that ?---In the county of Galway.

Why have you not registered your vote?--I have not been in the county these ten years; and I thought it might involve me in unpleasant circumstances, as I am acquainted with both the members, and some persons spoken of as likely to be candidates.

Do you consider that it would be desirable that a provision were made by the state, for the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland ?-I should think it would.

Dou think that such an arrangement would be acceptable to the Roman Catholic clergy or laity, if it were accompanied by the general measure of emancipation?—I should think it would, if accompanied by emancipation, but not otherwise.

Do you think, that otherwise, the clergy would ever be brought to accept of it?-They have entered into resolutions to that effect, that is, to accept no payment but from their flocks; they thought it might impair, if not destroy, the Catholic religion among their flocks, if they did accept it.

You mean, under existing circumstances?-Under existing circumstances.

Was not the ground of their objection stated to be, that they might be considered as purchasing an advantage for themselves, whilst the laity were left in a state of exclusion?-That was the ground.

Have you ever heard of it being likely that any Catholic property will be transferred out of Ireland, in case the civil disabilities are longer continued?—I can answer that question with regard to myself, for I mean to leave Ireland in consequence of the civil disabilities existing, as I now can leave Ireland: I find it not a pleasant residence.

Does the unpleasantness of the residence arise to you, from the disabilities under which you labour, or from the party feeling to which religious differences have given rise ?---I take it, that the civil disabilities create that party feeling.

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Which is the inconvenience which you peculiarly suffer; is it the political disability, or the inconvenience of party feeling? I never sought for any place, it is from social intercourse being poisoned.

Do you think that there are other Catholics disposed to take the same step as you say you yourself are inclined to do?-It is natural to suppose there are; I have heard many say, they would leave Ireland if they could with convenience.

Do you think that any proportion of Irish capital will be transferred to other countries, in case the disabilities under which the Catholics labour now are continued ?-I should think there would; I have myself some capital in France.

You having retired from business, do not mean to say, that in leaving Ireland you would transfer your capital, but you would transfer your residence?-I would transfer my residence.

Because the civil disabilities under which the Catholics labour, make Ireland not so pleasant a residence as you think you can meet with elsewhere?-Yes.

Have you ever heard, that in case emancipation was granted, that Catholics connected with Ireland, who now reside abroad, would come to Ireland, and bring their property with them?-I have not heard of Catholics who reside abroad having much property abroad, but I should think it is probable they would reside in Ireland if Catholic emancipation were granted.

Veneris, 11. die Martii, 1825.

LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR.

Lord Killeen, called in; and Examined.

WHERE do you reside in Ireland?—In the county of Meath. Do you act as a magistrate in that county ?—Yes.

Is the police establishment under the new Constabulary Bill -introduced into the county of Meath ?—It is.

How long has it been introduced?-Since the month of December 1822.

How are the appointments of the police made in that county; by what authority? The constables and sub-constables were appointed by the magistrates; the chief constables of course by the government.

What description of individuals were appointed as constables and sub-constables by the magistrates ?-They selected in the first instance, those of the old baronial constables, who were qualified from their conduct, their age, and their learning, those who could read and write, which is a necessary qualification for them; afterwards the magistrates appointed those that they thought likely to fill the situation with`advantage.

How have the expectations of the magistrates been answered, by the conduct of the individuals who have been so appointed? Generally speaking very well.

Have you had an opportunity of comparing the conduct of the police in your county, which has been appointed by the magistrates, with the conduct of the police in other counties, which has not been appointed by the magistrates?—Not exactly.

Do you consider that any good effects have arisen in consequence of the magistrates taking upon themselves to make those appointments, and making them from the body of the people in the county?-Certainly; I consider that where the imagistrates have made the appointments, the appointments

have been better made than by leaving it to chief constables, as it has, I understand, been done in other places.

Have any ill effects arisen out of the appointments made by the magistrates, by reason of the local prejudices or connexions of constables appointed?-Not in the county of Meath; I am; not aware of it.

What description of persons are appointed by Government, as chief constables in the county of Meath?-Half-pay officers ingeneral.

Havethose appointments been such as to render the police of your county efficient?-I think they have.

Are there any defects in the present constabulary system in Ireland, which have suggested themselves to your lordship's mind?—Yes; it is the practice constantly when a man behaves ill in one place, to remove him to another; I speak of the constables, not of the chief constables.

What would your lordship suggest as a punishment in place of his removal?-It is hard to say.

Can you state any particular instances in which this power of removal for some misconduct, operated to the prejudice of the police establishment in the county of Meath?-No.

Has it produced any evil consequences when it was done?— Not that I am aware of; because the persons have been removed to a distance, and have been lost sight of.

Are there any other defects in the present constabulary system, to which you would wish to point the attention of the. Committee?-In the old baronial constable system, the police was so exceedingly deficient and inefficient, that we were very glad to have the Constabulary Bill; and the county of Meath was one of the first in which it was introduced.

Is the system of petty sessions introduced into the county of Meath? Yes.

Is it universally acted upon?-I think now it is universally, in the county of Meath, within a few months; but, in some parts of it, it has been in existence for two years, or two years and a half.

Is your lordship acquainted with any magistrates who still continue to act individually, after the introduction of the petty sessions system?-No.

What alteration do you conceive was introduced into the practice of magistrates by the establishment of the petty sessions? I think the establishment of petty sessions has given the people a very great confidence in the decision of magistrates.

Has that confidence resulted from the openness of the proceeding, or from the combined administration of justice by two or more magistrates?-From both.

Do you conceive that it has made any difference in the expenses attendant upon proceedings before magistrates?-Not in the county where I reside. I think it has not, because the magistrates immediately around us, were not what are called trading magistrates.

What do you understand to be meant by trading magistrates? -Magistrates who have not much stake in the country, and who receive payment for warrants and summonses, &c.

Was that at all a common practice in Ireland?—I understand it was.

Is it common still?-I think not.

What species of misbehaviour of constables is that for which they have been removed to other parts of the country-There is at this moment, I believe, I speak merely of the county where I reside, a person of the name of Rowley whose wife was a Roman Catholic; she was ill in labour, and wished to see the Roman Catholic clergyman; her husband, who was a Protestant, did not choose that she should see a Roman Catholic cler gyman: he sent for a Protestant clergyman, and the Protestant clergyman, finding that the woman did not wish to have his assistance, retired, and recommended that a Catholic priest should be sent for. The woman died without seeing any clergyman. That man was reported to the superintendent of the county, and he was removed to another post or station.

Then his misbehaviour was not connected with his public duty as constable ?-No.

Are the Committee right in supposing, that the circumstances of misbehaviour for which a man is removed from one station to another, are circumstances not so much connected with his duty as a constable, as for his conduct in other particulars, which may have rendered him obnoxious in the neighbourhood?-I think not; that is the only instance I can speak of from my own knowledge.

Have not the police in the county of Meath, in some instances, been unfortunately obnoxious to the inhabitants where they have resided?—They have.

In those cases, were the constables originally selected from the district where they were stationed?—I cannot say for certain. Has it not been the practice, to bring the misconduct of those constables before the magistrates assembled at petty sessions, by the chief constable?-It has.

Therefore any misconduct has been taken cognizance of before the petty sessions, and they have come to some decision with respect to that misconduct?-In general.

The punishment has been inflicted under the direction of the

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