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Orangemen, there is something to that effect, that he is not, nor ever was, a Roman Catholic.

If Catholic emancipation were granted, do you think there would be any objection to raising the qualification of voters?— I doubt whether it be a desirable measure, but it is quite another question, whether so much liberty being purchased by emancipation, it would be right for the Catholics to make a stand upon the forty-shilling freeholds; as an individual, my own wish would be, to extend the franchise as far as I possibly could to every one.

As a general principle?—Yes; I know the system of fortyshilling freeholds is full of abuses, and with the extreme number of oaths with which it has been loaded, creates great perjury. I am myself a parliamentary reformer upon principle.

In point of fact, generally speaking, forty-shilling freeholders of Ireland exercise no freedom of election whatever?-Generally speaking, in many districts they do not; in cities they do decidedly exercise a freedom of election, and I have known them to exercise it, as far as my experience went, in cities with great disinterestedness and at great personal sacrifices; in counties, in general, they do not, for they become part of the live stock of a great estate.

Do you think they can set any value upon a franchise, in the exercise of which they are so constrained?—It is valuable to them, notwithstanding; for even in an estate where they are very much in the power of the landlord, the landlord is obliged, to a certain extent, to use the phrase I did before, to court them; and it is of value to an Irish peasant in the south, to get a tenure of land, and to have a life in his lease.

Do you know the system that is in general pursued, of ordering electors into the hustings?—I do, and condemn it very much.

Is it not by a note from the bailiff, as he is called in the north, or the driver in the south?—Yes, it is done in that way; there are great abuses in the system of regulations; it produces great perjury, but if those abuses, particularly the perjury, could be done away, in that case I should be sorry to see the forty-shilling freeholds abolished; although I do not mean to contend, that as a condition of emancipation, some arrangement might not take place upon that subject.

In the parts of the county you are most conversant with, do not you think that a moderate raising of the qualification would equally benefit Catholics and Protestants?—I rather think, that by raising the qualification, you would raise the Roman Catholic influence in most of the counties in the south of Ireland,

because the forty-shilling freeholder is much more the property of his landlord, than the 51. or the 107. freeholder would be; and as the greater part of the estates in fee are in the hands of Protestants, the consequence is, that with the forty-shilling Catholic freeholders, the Protestant landlord has really an influence; whereas the 5. or 101. freeholder would be more independent, and more likely to follow the bent of his own inclination.

Then, in that way, it would be acceptable to the Catholic population of Ireland?-If we were emancipated, the question politically between Catholic and Protestant would, in my mind, be at an end; but, if we were to continue unemancipated, if it were understood as distinctly as I understand it, it ought, for those reasons, to be acceptable to the Catholics.

Do you think, that Catholic freeholders, or indeed freeholders in any part of Ireland, are proud of their franchise ?-Yes, certainly, they all feel its advantages; it is the first step towards not being exactly slaves; it mitigates every part of the system.

In your own case, as possessing a landed estate, do you find that those persons who have leases for lives on your property will go to the mere trifling expense of one shilling, which is the sum allowed by law, to register their freeholds, without which registry they cannot vote?—Yes, they would, if I did not get them registered.

Do you believe, that is the general habit throughout Ireland? -I do; I know instances where persons have had freeholds acquired by remaining upon common land upwards of twenty years; and they have, at their own expense, unless somebody has done it for them, been quite ready to get them registered.

Does not that differ entirely from the nature of a common freehold interest in Ireland; is not that a freehold in itself?It is a fee-simple, but it shews that there is an anxiety on the part of the peasant, to have the advantage of being a freeholder.

Do you think, that at present in principle, the elective franchise can be said to be a franchise, when it depends upon so many circumstances that would prevent it being a franchise; for instance, there is the necessity of registering every seven years; if he does not register every seven years, he loses his freehold? It is excessively clogged in Ireland, certainly.

Do you think that that in principle is a franchise?-There still remains the franchise in principle; but in practice very much qualified by the regulations; to a lawyer it is quite familiar, that, whenever you set about mending a thing by Act of Parliament, you increase the other mischiefs tenfold, unless the

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simple plan be taken of beginning by repealing every thing that went before, and making your entire system in one Act of Parliament.

Do you think, that the population in Ireland, of the lower class of freeholders, would be satisfied to renounce what they consider an advantage, without any advantage being given them in return?-They certainly would not; and I should take it to be an excessively dangerous experiment to set about taking that right from the forty-shilling freeholders generally, without doing something first to conciliate them.

Do you not think, that it might be easily brought home to their understandings, that Catholic emancipation being granted, was a full remuneration for such loss? My own opinion is, that it might easily be done so, more especially if the qualifica tion was not made too high in the first instance, and leaving to the present class their right during the remainder of their lease.

Do you think that any good effects would arise from raising the elective franchise, laying aside all party feeling? Good effects in the abolition of perjury and frauds; but my own opinion is strongly in favour of extending the right of voting.

Could it be extended in Ireland?-It could be extended every where, upon principles that to my mind appear the principles of the constitution and of justice.

Do you think that there would be any well-grounded apprehension of discontent in consequence of it?-I think if the elective franchise was taken away from the forty-shilling freeholders, without satisfactory emancipation, there would be wellgrounded apprehensions.

In the event of Catholic emancipation being granted, you think there would not be ?-I think if a satisfactory act of emancipation was granted, it would be very easy to avoid all peril upon that subject.

Do not you think the feeling the Catholics would have upon the removal of what they consider a stigma upon their religion, would be that that was a greater benefit to them than any benefit they derive from the elective franchise ?-I am sure they would consider it so. I do not think there is a people in the world more disposed than the Irish to enter into that view of it.

What effect do you think would be produced upon the Protestant freeholders, who would be disfranchised in the same way as the Catholics, but who would have no such compensation for their loss, as the Catholics would have?-My opinion is, that the Protestant freeholders would consider such an act as an un

qualified grievance upon them; nor do I think there are any means of reconciling them to it.

Are they not very few in comparison with the Catholics?-In the north, I apprehend they are numerous; I do not see how the Protestant freeholders of the north could be reconciled to it, unless by gentlemen possessing influence convincing them that there was some equivalent given to them, by increasing the general Protestant interest in Parliament, against the particular Catholic interests which would be promoted.

If they considered that the carrying the question of emancipation, had a great effect in increasing the tranquillity of the country and removing the evils which affect Ireland, would not that be considered an equivalent ?-I should suppose it would; because it ought to influence every fair mind, and therefore the Protestant forty-shilling freeholders would be as likely to be satisfied for any thing that is reasonable, as the Catholic freeholders.

How do the laws stand in regard to Catholic charities?—The law as to the Catholic charities in Ireland, I take to have been, by a recent decision, favourable to them to a certain extent; there has been a decision, that a bequest for performing masses, is not an illegal bequest, but the Commissioners of charitable donations and bequests in Ireland being all Protestants, and having a power to litigate any charity they please, and whether they are successful or unsuccessful, they are entitled to the full costs of that litigation; that terrifies Catholics from making charitable bequests, who otherwise would. It would be quite right in any bill of emancipation, to regulate that.

With regard to money given for building schools, or glebehouses or chapels, is there still a practical difficulty in the way of any person who wishes so to dispose of his property?—I do not think there is any difficulty, that an experienced lawyer might not easily obviate; there are difficulties with respect to trustees, who may not be so easily compelled to execute those trusts; but in practice, what we do is, to vest the property in six or seven trustees, and as soon as one of those die, or two or three, then the survivors nominate new trustees, so as to make up the original number; by that means continuing the property in joint tenantcy, going to the survivors, in whom a personal confidence, from their character, is reposed; there is no danger of the intervention of heirs or executors, who would not be likely to perform the trusts; and it is by that scheme that Catholic charities are at present protected: but as that scheme requires a personal confidence, it is of course liable to abuse, and it is inconvenient, inasmuch as it creates expense, and creates trouble, and renders it necessary to have machinery to carry it on,

wherever things of that kind occur, and naturally retards the progress of charity.

Then you are of opinion, it would be desirable to have the law made more clear and satisfactory than it at present is? -I do think it would; it is a very delicate subject to meddle with, and had better be reserved, if there were an Emancipation Bill, entirely for a subsequent consideration.

Martis 8° die Martii, 1825.

LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON IN THE CHAIR.

Hugh O'Connor, Esquire, called in; and Examined. WHAT is your situation in life, and where do you reside?I reside in Mountjoy-square, Dublin; I was in trade, a merchant, but I have retired now from trade; I retired last year.

In what branch of trade have you been concerned?—In the West Indian trade; as a merchant, at the head of a house in the West Indian trade.

Did you carry on business to any considerable extent ?—I believe more so than any house in the West Indian trade; I believe it was so considered, and I believe the fact was so.

Are you acquainted with the state of trade, and commercial property, in the city of Dublin?—I have a pretty general acquaint-› ance with the state of trade.

Is a considerable portion of the trade of Dublin carried on by Roman Catholics?—Yes.

You yourself are of that persuasion ?—I am a Roman Catholic. Can you inform the Committee, whether any Roman Catholics are members of the Bank direction in the city of Dublin ?—None; nor have not been.

Have any inconveniences resulted to Roman Catholic merchants in Dublin, in consequence of the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the direction of the Bank ?-A great deal of inconvenience, and a good deal of injury.

Will you have the kindness to explain what inconvenience, and what injury, have resulted to Roman Catholic merchants, in consequence of that exclusion ?—I am a Bank proprietor myself, and when I was in trade, it would have been a great advantage to me to have been in the Bank direction; not that the 300l. a year salary. was any object to me, but it would have given me an insight into the state of credit of commercial persons, which would have been of great advantage to me as a merchant, and which insight I could not so well get otherwise; besides, I considered the exclusion of

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