of property imperfect in Ireland ?-Certainly it contributes to perpetuate disturbance.

Does not a very strong sympathy exist in the minds of a great proportion of the Protestant population with their Catholic countrymen, in consequence of those priveleges not being granted to them?-Great and strong in the south of Ireland; a very large class of Protestants, a great majority of the Protestants are sincerely and unaffectedly anxious for the emancipation of the Catholics; indeed, with the exception of some of the more violent of a particular class of dissenters, and of those persons that are immediately connected with, and have a personal interest in continuing the system, the Protestants in the south in general, with a few exceptions, are desirous of Catholic emancipation, as far as my knowledge has gone.

In point of fact, from your intercourse with Protestants, which has been very general in the south of Ireland, have you not discovered that a great majority of the Protestants of the south are favourable to what is called Catholic emancipation ?I have no doubt at all of it.

Do you mean unconditional emancipation, or an arrangement with the Catholics, by which emancipation might be granted to them? I do not think the protestants enter into that detail much; a great part of the Protestants are for emancipation in such a way as the government would arrange it, having (those who are best informed) no fears at all of the consequence; there are others that entertain apprehensions, and therefore would require what are called securities; there are others again that would not emancipate us upon any terms.

Do you think the majority of Protestants who are favourable to Catholic emancipation prefer, or rather would approve, of only conditional emancipation?-No, I do not, in my own experience, except such conditions as I myself would be very anxious to see accompany emancipation; that is, such conditions as would connect the Catholics and Catholic clergy with the government, precisely as the Protestants are connected with it; so that there should be no longer distinctions between one portion of the subjects and the other, either among themselves, or with relation to the government.

For instance, a provision for the Catholic clergy, and a certain control to the government in the appointment of that clergy?As to the appointment of the clergy, a difficulty arises which Catholics would not accede to; there are scarcely any of the Protestants of education in the south of Ireland, that say there shall never be emancipation.

In the late disturbances in the counties of Cork and Limerick, and in parts of Tipperary, were not the attacks as generally

directed against Roman Catholic gentlemen as against Protestants?-Certainly they were; and in many instances, the people that were murdered were Catholics; in most of the instances.

Do you think that any more apprehension prevails in the minds of those Protestants, than in the minds of the respectable part of the Catholics, as to any consequences that may arise from disturbances in the country?-Certainly not; the Catholics of property have been equally anxious to put down those disturbances, and where I have known of it, to say the least, equally efficient.

Can you give the Committee any information as to the course of education pursued at Maynooth college?-I can inform the Committee, that the course is published; and that for a few. pence, or at least a few shillings, the syllabus of the course of education there can be had at Coyne's, in Capel-street, in Dublin.

Is there not a very great want of books at Maynooth college? -They complain of wanting of books; the funds are totally inadequate for Maynooth college; without any disrespect, there is what I would call a miserable penury in the way that Maynooth college is treated.

Does that want of books interrupt the course of study, according to the system pursued in the English universities by books?-It affects it materially; but the mind of youth during the period of study, especially at Maynooth, where they are kept almost isolated from the world, where they are not allowed so much as a newspaper, in point of political information, there it is actually a want; there is an aptitude for learning, and such books as they have they devour in some measure, and become masters of every thing that is within their reach; there are four or five or six years in human life, when the mind is fittest for the purposes of the acquisition of knowledge; they are at Maynooth at that time living under a rigid discipline in point of hours, living very temperately in point of provisions, and secluded from the politics and pursuits of the world, much more, perhaps, than one would reasonably imagine; the consequence is, that all the influences upon the human mind tend one way, to acquiring as much knowledge as they possibly can; and the effect of that is really most striking in Ireland, with respect to the young priests educated at Maynooth.

Is the want of books supplied by very copious and lengthened oral discourses?-They do still dictate lectures, which the young men take down; and that is a most clumsy and tedious mode of education; at least, so I understand.

Then you cannot say whether those lectures ever go beyond the mere dry course of theological studies; whether they em

brace political discussions at all?-Certainly not; politics are totally excluded from Maynooth.

By politics, you mean the politics of the day?—The politics of the day; political economy, it would be quite a treat to a youth there to be allowed to study.

Newspapers, you say, are not allowed?-Quite excluded from the young men ; I have a nephew, who intends to be a priest, at Maynooth, and when he comes to my house at Dublin, it is a great treat to him to be allowed to go over the newspapers, four or five or six weeks old.

Are they allowed to mix with gentlemen and others residing in the neighbourhood?-Not at all.

Then are the Committee right in supposing, that Maynooth college has very much the appearance of a very strict monastery? -It has a good deal of a monastic discipline. What surprises me most, with respect to the young men educated at Maynooth, is not that they acquire a classical and scientific knowledge, but that they really acquire a style in the English language, that is of a very superior order; they write admirably well.

Do you think, that that perfect seclusion from common life is much calculated to improve the disposition and habits of the gentlemen who are destined to become priests, and to fill important posts in life afterwards?-I think it is. The Committee will recollect, that celibacy is a principal feature with respect to the Catholic clergy; then, if at the period of life at which those young men are educated, they were not kept secluded, they never could, in my judgment, from the propensities of nature, so overrule their passions, as to be able to live a life of celibacy afterwards. I think, therefore, that that species of seclusion is perhaps essentially necessary to the formation of the Catholic clergy; and I know, from those persons who are there, particularly those I see before me every day, that it does not at all prevent their acquiring even the manners of gentlemen, and the courtesies of civilized life.

Do you think, that as this is said to be the age of liberality, in so very strict a state of education as that employed at Maynooth, that young men can imbibe those principles which they ought to carry afterwards into life, and which renders the present age so superior to former ages?-My own opinion is, that there ought to be perfect religious freedom every where; but when I say, that I think that indifference as to religious faith is a bad thing, I think people ought to be perfectly cautious in selecting, and perfectly sincere in professing a religious faith, and with these notions I am anxious to see the priesthood deeply imbued with the importance of their station and situation in life; and I look to the solemn, marked and religious education of a priest

as a great good in society. I do not think there is any practi cal evil at all from it; the liberality of the present age has done away, in my judgment, the possibility of any of those gloomy superstitions, that would be laughed out of society at present; and after all, perhaps, we hear more of them in romances than existed in any state of society.

Do not you think those gloomy superstitions are very likely to be imbibed in so close and strict an education as that at May. nooth ?--I have no such fears.

What is to counteract it?-Science, while they are there, because they go through a course of natural and scientific philosophy, and they mix in their recreations with the world. Again, the very keeping away books from them makes them more anxious for them when the restraint is removed.

Is there any prohibition upon the course of their studies, when they leave Maynooth for their vacations, or when they leave Maynooth to visit their friends?-I am convinced, none except the general one against any work tending to immorality, and in particular those works that would excite ideas of impu rity, against which there is a particular caution, and a necessary one, for the kind of life they are leading. I know an immense number of priests that have been educated there, and there is not a tinge about them of that species of superstition; and the children of exceedingly vulgar people, you would be surprised if you met them in society, to see how completely the manners, and almost the tone, of genteel society, they had acquired.

In the event of what is called Catholic emancipation being granted, the Committee presume you would think the present sum that is annually voted for Maynooth totally inadequate to the purpose?—I am quite convinced it is totally inadequate at the present; and I venture to say that, without emancipation, there is great danger by reason of this inadequacy, because there is a greater temptation to have Catholic priests educated in France, which is a growing evil to my own knowledge.

Are you able to inform the Committee of the comparative expense of education at Maynooth, and at the Burses in France? -No, I am not.

Is it not less in France?—I am quite convinced it is less in France.

Then the effect of increasing foreign education is rather to induce the lower class of the community to enter into the priesthood?-It would be one tendency, certainly.

The Committee wish to know whether it is your decided opinion, that the objections that have been raised by many Protestants in Ireland to Catholic emancipation, have greatly lessened within the last ten or twenty years, and that the objec

tions to that measure, on the part of the Protestants, are much weaker than they have been?-I think they are weaker now among the Protestants in general; however, the mutual calumnies, as I hope they are, upon each other, of the Orange party and the Catholics, have more exasperated the Catholics, and also the Orangemen; and I think latterly there has been violence against us amongst the Orangemen; but among the Protestants there is less apprehension than formerly. I know of my own knowledge, that the Catholic Association has won upon a great number of Protestants, particularly in Dublin.

Do you not think that with respect to Orangemen, as you would define them, and Catholics, there is a natural action and re-action ? Oh, certainly; faults on both sides, in my opi

nion.

The Orangemen probably entertain a very improper notion of the Catholics; and some Catholics entertain very improper notions of Orangemen ?-Yes, I am sure it is so; and one of the beneficial results of emancipation would be, to put an end to that mutual action and re-action.

Do not you think that without emancipation, the exasperation arising from that action and re-action might be greatly lessened, by both parties abstaining from violent language?-I am sure it might; but in point of fact, I am convinced it never will without emancipation; the Orangemen have a personal interest, many of them, in excluding the Catholics, as any man has an interest in monopoly. The Catholics, on the other hand, wish to share in the benefit of the things so monopolized; and when you add to individual interest religious zeal, when those both run in the same channel, they make so powerful a current, that it would be very hard to stop it.

Do you think that it is possible that that good will, which all wish to see in Ireland, can exist so long as the Orange lodges exist, and Catholics are excluded from being Orangemen ?think that alone would continue the ill will; I think that if the Catholics were emancipated, and the Orange lodges continued in their present system, that however loyal a Catholic may be, he could be admitted. As for example, the case of the Earl of Fingal, who fought the rebels in the year 1798, if he still were excluded from any society for his religion, that alone would perpetuate the animosity; and if the Catholics formed a similar society, it would have the same effect.

Is the general impression in Ireland, that no Protestant who ever has been a Roman Catholic, is admitted into the Orange societies ?-It is; and I believe that impression is founded upon fact thus far, that in the original oaths of the