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candidates for orders in the Roman Catholic church, should be very early brought from their homes, and put in places of education, where they are under habits of discipline?-Certainly ; till lately, they were almost all of them children of a very low class, but now there are many of the gentry becoming priests; there are many events that contributed to a tendency to increase the number of the children of gentry disposed to become priests. Do you know any thing of a class of persons, who went about the country, young boys, who called themselves poor scholars, boys who were to be educated as Catholic priests?—Yes; at present I take it that all that do it are impostors, and ill conducted impostors; formerly there was a numerous class that begged its way to some education, by this means, and having acquired a knowledge of Greek and Latin sufficient, were ordained when they attained the age of twenty-three years and some months, and they then went to the Burses as they were called in France; at present, I take all of the class of poor scholars to be impostors.

Can you state, what class of persons the Catholic priests educated at Maynooth, and at those diocesan schools, are?They are mostly the children of peasants or small farmers; but latterly several gentry are becoming priests; there are a good many of them now in Maynooth.

Do not you think an arrangement, for making a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy, would be much calculated to raise the order of priests? To introduce children of a wealthier class certainly; but, perhaps, not a better class. Those young men, when they get education, the cultivation has the same effect upon them, as it would have if they had been born of higher parents. They make, at present, excellent and exemplary priests.

In your opinion, if emancipation was granted as a condition to the clergy being paid by government, would it not produce the effect of a better description of persons becoming candidates for the priesthood?-If by better is meant, as I suppose it is, a wealthier class, it certainly would have that tendency, and a useful tendency for the purposes of government I take it, because they would not be so much under the influence of very low people, as they necessarily are, when all their relations are in the lowest stage of society.

They would be an important link in the chain of society?— I think they would be a very important and useful one.

Are you acquainted with the Catholic college at Carlow?I know that a college exists, and I know the superiors of it.

They educate for the priesthood altogether, that is, a person may be appointed a priest from that college?—Yes, a man may be ordained, as many are, who never were beyond the seminary of Carlow, as I believe.

Do you know the expense incurred by a young person, who goes through that college?-I cannot furnish the Committee with any calculation upon that subject.

Are you aware, whether the secular clergy in Ireland, are at all assisted by the regular clergy in the performance of their duty-Yes; the secular clergy of Ireland, in the towns particularly, can never do half, or a third of the duties, without the regular clergy; for example, in the parish in which I live in Dublin, I myself, and my family, hear mass every Sunday, at a friary in Clarendon-street; and the greater part of the Catholics of property in that parish, hear mass at that friary; there are probably, every Sunday, near 1,000 persons who go to communion at that friary alone; now but for that friary, the parish chapel would never be sufficient for the numbers that desire to go to communion.

Can you state, from your own knowledge, the difference that exists in the Catholic church, between monks and friars?-The distinction I take to be exactly this; we have in Ireland what are called education monks, a certain class that are of novel institution; I will put those for the present out of my answer to the question. A friar, in its present definition, signifies a person belonging to an order bound by a vow of poverty. The monks have large estates and fortunes. A friar, properly speaking, neither he nor his convent could have any property, some of them are supported by mere mendicity, and there are certain mendicant orders, but all those who are supported by charity in any way are of the orders of friars, having taken the vow of poverty. The monks, some of them took the vow of personal poverty, but the order was rich; others were neither bound to poverty personally, nor by their order.

Is not the assistance which the priests derive from the monastic orders, in the performance of their duty, chiefly afforded by that class of individuals called friars?-In Ireland it is, there is no other class in Ireland; the Augustinians, properly speaking, were not friars, they were canons regular of the order of St. Augustine; most of the convents in Ireland belonged to the order of St. Augustine, and that order has been continued, but they are now supported as the friars are in Ireland: they are all perfectly ready to assist the secular priests in their duties.

Are not the convents in which females are, very numerous throughout Ireland, and very wealthy?-There are several of them; they are not to say very wealthy, but they all can support themselves, and their wealth is increasing, because each lady who comes into a convent is obliged to bring a certain sum, as three or four hundred pounds; now that money is not consumed, but becomes capital, and the interest of it supports the

convent; the consequence is, that as time rolls over them the amount of their capital is accumulating.

Do you know the Ursuline convent in Cork?-Very well.

Can you state, from general report, what the amount of wealth of that convent is? I know the convent quite well, but could not make any calculation of that; they have lately bought, outside of the city of Cork, a very handsome domain, which they are enclosing with a very high wall and gardens, and building wings to the house that was upon that domain; they educate the Catholic young ladies of Ireland in great numbers, it is a favourite place of education for the young ladies.

You did not hear of their offering a sum to the amount of 30,000l. for the purchase of an estate?-No; I did not hear of that offer, but I should not be surprised to hear that, between the money brought in by nuns, and the great accumulation of profits upon education, which to them are very considerable, for the nuns themselves teach all the arts, and every thing but dancing, and then they live upon very little.

Is their object confined exclusively to the education of females? The Ursuline convent in Cork is exclusively confined to the education of females; besides the duties of the nuns themselves, which are purely religious.

Is not that the case in all other female convents about Ireland? The other convent in Cork, which I believe is called Poor Clares, educate the poor children in great numbers, and I believe that they educate young boys; they have an immense number of poor children, I know, that they educate.

The question referred to the Ursuline order generally?—The Ursuline order in Ireland is generally confined to the education of the upper classes, but wherever there is not another convent of females to educate the poor females gratis, they always establish a school to educate the poor females; wherever there is a second convent it takes that duty, they only educate the wealthier classes.

Do all the female convents educate gratis throughout the Country?-No; the Ursuline convent in Cork does not educate gratis, they educate Catholic young ladies and are paid.

You state, that the mode in which the wealth of the convents has arisen, is from the money each person pays in coming into the convent, which is vested as capital; can you tell the Committee from whence they get the interest, or how that money is vested in order to pay interest?-Formerly they used to lay it out in landed property, latterly it has been in bank stock or government securities.

Are the Jesuits and Augustinians the principal orders established in Ireland? They are the principal orders that are

established in Ireland; there are Carmelites of two orders in Ireland, the shod and unshod Carmelites; the Dominicans and Franciscans of two orders, at the least; I believe some Benedictines, but I will not say positively, but those that I have mentioned, I know of.

In case the Emancipation Bill was carried, is there any prospect of any opulent Catholics now resident on the Continent, returning to Ireland with their property? That I have heard, but I know that if emancipation be delayed, some very wealthy Catholics will carry their property out of Ireland; I know instances where they are preparing to do it, urged by the greater acrimony of modern times, and getting weary of the contest. What is your opinion with respect to the sentiments entertained by the lower orders of the Catholics, in reference to the penal laws? The opinion is universal, that they are governed by force, and that those who administer the law, are in an attitude of constant hostility against them, and there is a perpetual hatred amongst them against the governing powers. Its effect is to indispose them to every act of the government; and when a man. is punished, his friends console themselves by considering it an act of violence and injustice, instead of being the administration of law towards him.

Are they generally acquainted and sensible of the disability they labour under? They are quite sensible of it, and if they want to be reminded of it at all, wherever there are Protestants in their neighbourhood of their own class, they are reminded of it by the greater advantages of being Protestants which they see; and if there be any thing at all of the Orange in their neighbourhood, that reminds them still more strongly of it.

Would the passing of the Emancipation Bill produce amongst them any general feeling of satisfaction?-I am quite sure that I am not consulting the interests of the Catholic gentry, when I say that I am certain it would create great satisfaction among them, the links of society act upon each other down to the remotest part of the chain; and if Catholics were emancipated, they would be in their various stations according to their talents and merit, as Protestants are, and then the patronage of every kind would become equally distributable through the country; distributable from those individuals who are connected with the government through the country, and as soon as that occurred, the line of distinction that is so marked now, of keeping the patronage in one class, would be completely effaced, the effect would be that the people and the government would become reconciled to each other.

Would the removal of the civil disabilities contribute to diminish the popular disorders and disturbances that have pre

vailed? I am sure they would very much, at present every oppression comes upon them with a double aspect; it is oppression in itself and oppression from an enemy; although I have never attributed the disturbances of Ireland merely to the want of emancipation, I am quite sure that the want of emancipation aggravates every thing of that kind, and consequently taking that want away would take away so much of the evil.

You are then decidedly of opinion, that the removal of the disabilities would lead to the diminishing or getting rid altogether of that great practical evil, the disposition of the people to embark in disturbance? I am sure it would very much facilitate the return to tranquillity; by itself it would not tranquillize Ireland, but without it I do not think you can ever have Ireland perfectly tranquil; with it you would be making great progress towards tranquillity, with the prospect of arriving at it; and one of its best effects perhaps would be, that it would put an end to the irritation prevailing between the various

sects.

Would it tend to diminish the religious animosities that exist? -Most certainly; I take it emancipation would completely extinguish those, for I have always perceived that when Catholics and Protestants of a liberal class come to know each other personally, the animosity diminishes even by personal knowledge.

Is not that the case in the county of Kerry very much?-In the county of Kerry there is no animosity almost; there is scarcely a trace of it, with the exception of Tarbert, where there was a kind of hotbed for it; it is unknown in Kerry.

Does not a very strong feeling exist, and is not a mode of reasoning very prevalent among the people, that though it does not immediately affect the people themselves, still no children of theirs, however talented, can ever obtain the immunities of state?-People perceive that very well, and calculate upon it among themselves, and their pothouse politicians do not fail to tell them so; they remember some of the first names in Ireland having been the sons of peasants like themselves, and they know that every office and station and situation in the state is open to the child of a Protestant, and that none practically are open to them.

Do those disabilities contribute to retard the progress of internal improvement in Ireland?-Very much, because they aggravate the evils which otherwise exist, and continuing them will tend to perpetuate that system of disturbance which of course prevent manufactures from settling and capital from coming in, and frighten away the gentry.

Does it not mainly contribute to render the state of security

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