from unfortunate circumstances, more knowledge upon these points than laymen generally have, I conceive, that if what I call an Emancipation Bill passed, at that moment the right which the Pope has upon a missionary country would totally cease; there would not be the least pretext for continuing it, and I believe all the Catholic clergy in Ireland would be anxious for that.

Do you happen to know whether the kingdom of the Netherlands is considered as a missionary country?-I am convinced it is not.

Prussia ?-Prussia was till lately.

You have alluded to the necessity of some concordat being arranged with the see of Rome ?-Merely to arrange the original right of nomination from the Pope himself.

Do you think that such an arrangement with the see of Rome would more easily be effected after the measure of Roman Catholic emancipation had passed, than it would before it? Most certainly after. I take it that government would not find the least difficulty in making that arrangement after emancipation: the present state of Ireland brings the Catholics into a kind of a corporate capacity: they act as a body by reason of the compression; if emancipation took place, there would be a total end to that, and we would mix in all the grades of society without distinction; and as there certainly is a most unaffected desire on our parts to become king's subjects, I do not think the government would have the least difficulty in being satisfied upon these points after emancipation.

In other countries, where concordats have been made by the Pope, have they not been contemporaneous with the settlement of other branches of the question ?-I believe not; I think, in general, in other states the civil rights were first conceded; I may be mistaken upon this, but whatever the precedents may be in that way, and however valuable we lawyers may consider precedents, I am sure I know enough of the Irish Catholics, to know that there would be great difficulties thrown in the way before emancipation, and I will venture to pledge myself, that there would be none at all afterwards.

Do you think there would be any difficulty on the part of the court of Rome?-In the court of Rome I believe you would find great facility, because you would find from the Catholic clergy themselves great facilities; and the two Roman Catholic archbishops that would be nearest to government, are both gentlemen who are disposed to facilitate any thing that is deemed wise by the government of the country, if it could be done without interfering with what they consider their duty. I was asked a question respecting the state of things in the Nether

T

lands; I believe there are several unsettled points in the Netherlands.

When a Catholic see is vacant, in what manner is that at present filled up ?-In some of the sees there has been a rude continuation of the deans and chapters; those are now asserting their rights to originate the nomination; and in every instance that they have asserted it, I believe it has been allowed at Rome. Where there are not deans and chapters, an election by parish priests has been very much the recent practice; and wherever they have elected, if the neighbouring bishops concur, that nomination has been received at Rome, and confirmed.

Is that a practice of recent date?-Of recent date; eight or ten years.

Is it the general practice now in Ireland ?-The consulting of parish priests is becoming a very general practice now in Ireland among the Catholics, as to the original nomination.

Is not the interference of the Pope in original nomination, whether under the idea of its being a missionary country or otherwise, an unpopular thing with the clergy of Ireland ?-It is quite an unpopular thing among both clergy and laity in Ireland.

Do you not think in that respect they are under the same feelings that the English Catholics were before the Reformation, in guarding against the encroachments of the See of Rome? -All the Catholic clergy and laity in Ireland, except those that expect special favour would, in my opinion, be quite unanimous in having that nomination taken away, as far as it can be done consistently with our religious principles.

If the government of the country were desirous of giving the Pope effectual power of originating nominations in Ireland, would they not find it almost impossible to do so?—They would find it extremely difficult to do it; they would find it very strongly opposed by Catholics in Ireland; I should myself oppose it as far as I possibly could; and if I thought I made myself master of the doctrines of the Catholic church upon this subject, if I found that I could safely oppose it completely, I

would not submit to it.

Are not references frequently made to the Pope, in questions which arise between the clergy and the bishops?—Yes; in cases purely ecclesiastical and spiritual, the Pope is the supreme head of the Catholic church, to whom the appeal in those cases lies, in all questions of controversy between the priests and the bishops; when a bishop censures a priest, if the priest conceives that censure unfounded, he has an appeal to the immediate superior, to the archbishop, and if he does not get relief from the archbishop, he has an appeal to Rome, and they do

appeal; and I have known instances where a priest has thus appealed with success; if the bishop alters the parish, or takes away any right the priest may conceive himself entitled to, he has that appeal.

Have you known it occur where the boundary of the parish has been altered?—Yes, I have; a Mr. Moriarty, a priest in Kerry, a very near relation of mine, was bishop of Kerry, and thought it right to alter the parishes by subdividing them; Mr. Moriarty appealed to Rome, and appealed successfully, and he compares his bishop to Bonaparte; he said he wanted to Bonapartise his diocese.

Have you not known references made also in cases of marriage, in questions arising respecting the marriage of parties? -There are questions of marriages within the prohibited degrees, that certainly do arise, and may be conveyed to Rome, and from information, I should say are conveyed to Rome; and those questions are standing at present, and would make unpleasant points arise upon ejectments by children: they ought to be settled by law.

Are not those references to Rome unpleasant and unpopular? -They would be very unpopular if they were not upon mere spiritual questions; but they are a resource against ecclesiastical tyranny or misconduct, and in that view are not unpopular.

In cases of excommunication are they not sometimes resorted to ?-Every Catholic is apprized, that any excommunication for any thing that is not religious, is itself a void excommunication; but if there did occur a case of excommunication where it was a spiritual matter, the appeal would lie to Rome; to the bishop from the priest, from the bishop to the archbishop, and from the archbishop to Rome.

In the case of a marriage within the degrees that your church forbids, and that the Protestant church allows, the Roman Catholic priest would consider his parishioner as living in a state of sin, if he cohabited with a person with whom a marriage had been celebrated within those degrees, and in a spiritual point of view he would endeavour to restrain him from doing so; but with respect to the issue of the marriage, which the Protestant church acknowledges as a lawful one, would not every person of your religion consider that the issue was entitled to succeed, according to the laws of the country ?-Certainly; and upon an ejectment they certainly would recover; so much so, that if the parties themselves were not cognizant of their relationship, and if mischief was to follow from it, I do not think the Catholic clergy would disturb them, by obtruding the information they had not before them: I know that occurred in a most horrible

instance with the late Dr. Troy; there was a woman who had a child at the age of fifteen, and the child was taken to the Charter school; and it happened, that at the age of four or five and thirty years she married a very young man, and it turned out to be her own son: Dr. Troy became acquainted with the fact, and the result was, that he did not inform them of it; she died soon after, but there was quite time enough for him to inform her of it, but he thought it was better not, for fear of the consequences.

Do you know the circumstances under which the college of Clongowes, is called a Jesuit establishment?-The order of Jesuits is restored in the Catholic church; a man has as much a right to be a Jesuit in Ireland as to be a lawyer there; they had property, they were Irishmen, and they preferred vesting that property in Ireland, for the education of the Irish youth.

Is the establishment of the regular order of Jesuits?—I believe so; at least, so I understand; there are superiors, there are priests of the order, there are novices, and there are lay brothers; I take it to be a regular Jesuit establishment.

Are they in connexion with any establishments in foreign countries?-They are in connexion with the Jesuits at Stoneyhurst, in this country; but they are in connexion as any of the orders of friars in the Catholic church are; in the Catholic church all the friars have their spiritual superior at Rome, and their immediate superior in Ireland, or whatever country they are in throughout Europe; it is so in every country, Catholic and Protestant, where there are friars.

Are they under any general of the order?—Yes; every order of friars is under a general; the Jesuits certainly have a general, and so have the Carmelites of the two orders in Ireland, and so have the Franciscans of the two orders in Ireland, and the Augustinians in Ireland, and the Dominicans in Ireland; the only order in Ireland that has not a general in Rome, are the education monks; they have no general at Rome, as I believe.

Can they confer, and do they confer upon young men the order of Jesuit?—I am convinced they do receive them into the order; they go through their novitiates, and they make their Vows. In the female convents a profession is displayed, and people go to see the reception of a novice, and her taking her It is not made a sight of in the convents of men; but the process is pretty much the same in both.

Vows.

Is a Jesuit admitted to orders in the Roman Catholic church, virtute ordinis?-No; the bishop must be satisfied that he is a fit person.

The claims of the Jesuits, in that respect, have been resisted? -I do not believe they were ever yielded to in Ireland.

Were they ever assented to in Ireland ?—I do not know, I never heard that they were; whenever particular privileges are set up by any order of the church, they are generally resisted; and any particular privilege would be resisted by the bishops in Ireland.

Would not that be a question that would be properly referred to the Pope ?-A question upon any privilege of that sort would be properly referred to the Pope; but I have no doubt if the Emancipation bill passed, there is not a question of that sort that would not be easily communicated to the government.

Have you heard that the late Pope wished to enforce that privilege for the Jesuits in England?-I have not heard that; but I think I may venture to say, that it has not been attempted in Ireland, or I should have heard of it.

Is not there an establishment for the education of priests in Kilkenny ?—I am convinced there is; the foundation of Maynooth is by no means sufficient, in my judgment, for the education of Catholic clergy in Ireland; the bishops have found it necessary to have a seminary for the education of priests themselves. There is one, I believe, in Kilkenny: there is one, I know, in Kerry; there is one, I know, in Cork. I am not apprized that there is one in Limerick, or in Clare; I believe there is one in Limerick; there is one certainly at Carlow.

Those are under the regulation of the bishops, and not of any particular order?-Precisely so; there is a distinction in the Catholic church between secular and regular clergy. The parish priests, and those educated at Maynooth, are all of the class of secular clergy; the friars and monks are all called regular clergy.

Are the numbers limited in those colleges ?-Limited only by the means.

Can you state at all what is the number educated throughout Ireland ?-I cannot; there is a constant demand for Irish priests from England and America, and the West Indies; and wherever the English language is spoken they are extremely anxious to get Irish priests.

The establishments you last mentioned, are for a younger order of persons than those at Maynooth ?-The bishops desire as much as they can, before they send any of their priests into parishes, to have them pass some time at Maynooth; but Maynooth not being sufficient, I know several that were never even at Maynooth; they were merely educated in the diocesan seminary.

Do

you not think it very important, that persons, who are