Do you know the population of it?-It is very dense. Are you aware that in England every man, who cannot get employment, has a right to receive a sum of money, sufficient to enable him to purchase his food, from the parish ?—Yes; I am aware that, generally speaking, each parish is obliged to sustain them.

Provided he cannot get labour?-Yes; I am only aware that each parish in England, is bound to maintain its own poor. Does not that mean to provide those people with the means of living, who cannot earn it by their labour?-Unquestionably. Supposing every person in your parish, that could not earn his livelihood by labour, had an opportunity of going to the overseer, and receiving from him what should be sufficient to purchase him the food he requires, have you any idea of the charge that would make upon the parish?-No; the numbers are very great of old, infirm and decrepit.

Suppose that every able-bodied labourer had a right to go, as well as the old, infirm and decrepit, and receive money to buy himself food; under those circumstances, would there not be a very great charge upon the parish?-A very great indeed.

Would not a great part, or almost the whole of the labouring population, apply for relief?—I think not; if they could get labour, the Irish are willing to work, and I know many instances where they are unwilling to expose their distress.

Have you any idea that it is probable that the labouring people will have the means of getting labour?-I am not aware of any thing at this moment, for the depressed state of agriculture is so great, there is no inducement on the part of the farmer, to embark in any speculations that would give them employment.

Would not a certainty existing that provision and relief could be got from the public fund be a new inducement to early marriages in Ireland?-I do not think it could; for I think the great evil is the early marriages at present; I think that any thing like poor laws should be on a very modified scale. If any circumstances were to occur to check the habit of early marriages, would not the existence of the poor laws contribute to counteract them?-If there was a modified plan of poor laws well regulated, I think they could be so done as that they could not be available for those purposes; I do not think it would accelerate early marriages.

Do you feel certain that you can adopt the principle of poor law, and by any means limit it in its operation? Yes, I do think that possible.

Do you think that in a season of very great distress, supposing the law was limited merely to the infirm and decrepit,

that you could prevent it from being extended to other classes of the people?-Certainly, I think I could.

You are aware that there are a great number of Irish labourers come over to this country in the summer?—Yes.

Do you think that those people would come to England for employment if they could be supported out of the parish rate at home?—I think they would, for the reason I have already assigned; I find that they are unwilling to be supported by charity.

You think they would go on coming to England ?—I would not leave it in their power to be supported from the parish. Have any gone from the Queen's County to look for permanent employment in England?-A good many.

Have any of them been obliged to come back, because they were not allowed to remain in England?-A great many came back, because they were not allowed to remain.

Were they people that were refused relief in England, or that were prevented from settling by residence, as interfering with the people of England?-I understand from a great number of them that the labourers of that class of life in England, have great jealousy of their coming in amongst them, and taking their employment from them.

What do you think is the average extent of parishes in your neighbourhood?-I think about 5000 acres; Stradbally excepted, which I found contains about 1400.

Do you not think that the establishment of poor laws, however modified, would greatly aggravate the evil of which you, in the former part of your evidence, complained; namely, the pressure upon the population by parochial charges?-If the charge of the poor laws were to fall exclusively upon the occupier of the soil it would bring his ruin immediately.

Must it not necessarily fall upon the occupier, inasmuch as the landlord, for instance, if he has his ground to let, would immediately upon the lease being expired, or his getting possession of the ground, raise that charge upon the occupying tenant, which he would be chargeable with in order to maintain these poor laws?-If it is the wisdom of the legislature to direct the occupier to pay any charge for any definite object, that may be received in discharge of his present engagements.

Do you think that Parliament can control the landlord, in demanding a certain price for the land that he lets?-Certainly not; but as it is I do not suppose it will interfere with the property of gentlemen; but I speak now of the state that the country is in under demises for years and for lives; and it might interfere so as to regulate the proportions to be paid by the parties.

You stated the average size of parishes may be taken at about 5000 acres; what is the average size of the town lands?-Town lands vary very much; I have found some town lands not to contain 100 acres, and others six or seven hundred acres.

Are not the parishes then, almost, too large districts to be overlooked by overseers appointed by the parish; would they not be too large for overseers?—I think not.

Supposing those overseers to be over town lands, are there not many town lands in which there are many inhabitants in which there is no person fit for the situation?—I think there are town lands, in which there would be no persons applying for relief.

What is the state of leases generally in your part of Ireland?-Lands are, generally speaking, demised for leases of three lives or thirty-one years.

Do the persons to whom those leases are granted, generally occupy the whole of the land so demised?-Many do, and many do not.

In the cases of those who do not, how do they demise them again?—They often set them for one life, or two or three lives, or a certain number of years.

What does the man who has this lease for one life or number of years, how does he deal with the land, does he sub-let it again?-Sometimes he does; too often.

Does the person who demises from him ever again sub-let?— I am sure there are cases of such sub-lettings.

What is the greatest number of tenants that you know under the head landlord ?-Probably they go down to five.

Each of the tenants endeavouring to obtain a profit rent out of the other, to whom he demises?-Exactly.

What portion of the land in your neighbourhood, do you think is occupied by the head landlord?-None at all.

What proportion do you think is occupied by the first lessee without sub-letting ?-Very many occupy the entire, and several sub-let in the immediate neighbourhood: I myself occupy all the lands I have got, with the exception of workmen's gardens.

Do you think that the immediate lessees occupy half the land in the district with which you are best acquainted?I think they do at present; but I think they did not some three or four years back.

What has caused that difference?-The distress of agriculture has brought down the immediate tenant, and he has pulled down the person who demised to him; and a great number of the middle men are all knocked down.

So that the person who was formerly an under tenant, now holds immediately from the head landlord ?-A great many of

them do.

Are those persons possessed of much capital?-Several of them have a good deal of capital, and many have not.

Adequate to the management of the tracts they have?-I think there are many that have not sufficient for the tracts of land they have.

What is the size of those holdings generally?-The farms vary very much, it extends as low as to a solitary acre; from fifty acres down to one.

What is the average size of farms let to the immediate lessee of the original landlord?-It generally goes from about 50 acres to 250 ; I mean the cultivated low lands.

What description of houses are occupied by the immediate lessee of the original proprietor ?-Very often but very indifferent thatched houses.

Are many of them slated?-Some of the great proprietors that live at home build most capital houses for their farmers, particularly Mr. Cosby; I have heard Lord Lansdowne also does so.

Those are slated houses?—Yes; and for his mountain farmers, comfortable thatched cottages.

Are the houses of the immediate tenants of the original landlords always repaired by the lessee, or ever by the landlord ?Always by the tenants.

And in the case of a sub-tenant; are they always repaired by the sub-tenant?-Always repaired by the tenant in occupancy.

Generally speaking, are the resident landlords of the county, and particularly in your immediate neighbourhood, all attending very much to the comfort of their tenants?—I think they are all attending to the interest of their tenants; but the two I have mentioned pre-eminently so.

Sabbati, 5° die Junii, 1824.

LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.

Mr. John Dunn, again called in; and Examined.

You stated yesterday, that the holdings vary from about 50 to 250 acres generally?—Yes, I did.

By those holdings, you mean the holdings immediately from the landlord?-I do.

Supposing a holding of 200 acres is sub-let by the immediate lessee, into how many different parcels does he frequently divide it? It varies very much, sometimes it may be let into five different parts, sometimes double the number, sometimes half.

Supposing a holding of 200 acres is divided into five parcels, each of 40 acres, will the tenant of those 40 acres be able to cultivate them by his own family, or must he employ other labourers; the question referring to farms generally arable?— It often occurs, that they are cultivated by the family of the master, and very frequently he employs hands to assist.

How many acres do you conceive a family, with the average number of hands in it, is capable of cultivating?-A family, comprising the master and four sons capable of labour, and two daughters, which is a moderate family in Ireland, six in number, besides the father and mother, I should suppose fully equal to a farm of from 30 to 40 acres, occasionally having help in the harvest or hurried times.

In point of fact, how many houses and cabins do you think there are generally erected upon a holding of 40 or 50 acres in your neighbourhood ?-In some instances there is not more than one, and in very many instances there may be five to six or eight huts for the habitation of the wretched occupiers.

How do the inhabitants of those supernumerary cabins employ themselves?-Generally, for any spare time they may have from the cultivation of their own farm they endeavour to procure labour in the immediate neighbourhood.

Is that labour to be had constantly ?-No, very rarely. How much land do the occupiers of those small cabins occupy ?-Sometimes, but one acre, sometimes two; and I think, scarcely more than five or six acres.

Is the whole of that generally cultivated as potatoe-ground? -When they have but one acre it is generally the greater part under potatoes, and the part they are able to manure the current year will have a crop upon it the succeeding year, having corn that year.

How much land do you conceive to be necessary to be attached to a cabin for a family occupying it for a potatogarden?—I should suppose, about three acres would be as much as they could well manage if they had not a cow.

Generally speaking, the occupants of those holdings have not a cow ?-They have not.

How do they provide themselves with milk?—There are large dairies, generally speaking, pretty much through the country, and they dispose of their butter-milk, they sell it.