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The lower order of Protestants assert their superiority to the poorer Catholics in every incident where they are brought into comparison. Allow me to give an example: Sander's newspaper in the city of Dublin contains most of the advertisements of servants; every servant who is a Protestant makes mention of his religion in his advertisement for a place; he thereby intimates that he belongs to a better class in society; that he is probably a more decent and respectable man; assuredly, this superiority, assumed by the lower classes of Protestants in society, must be extremely galling to the Roman Catholics; it meets them at every step. To return to the question put to me, I conceive that the Roman Catholic freeholders would be reconciled, by the ascent they would make in the political scale, to the deprivation of what is in reality no substantial enjoyment. They would purchase equality with the Protestant servant and mechanic, at the expense of a useless vote.

If they argue so sensitively on points of this nature, cannot they argue equally sensitively on this point; or may not a person make use of that argument to dissatisfy their minds with this ar rangement, by which they are the only losers ?-I do not think that any person who engaged in such an enterprise would succeed; when the qualification of a freeholder is raised, there is an incentive to honourable exertion given to the peasant: you do not tell him he shall never vote, but you tell him, that in order to exercise this privilege he must acquire an interest of five or ten pounds a-year; he has always hope before him. The Roman Catholic peasant would not consider himself as deprived of any valuable possession; most of the peasantry would expect to be able by industry to raise themselves at last to the qualification; a freehold would become an object of ambition, and would be a real and honourable privilege.

Will not the Catholics, in case emancipation is carried, consider that measure as merely conferring advantages upon the upper orders ?-Certainly not.

Will it be to them and by them considered as a measure conferring advantages upon themselves ?They think it will confer great advantages upon themselves, and it will, in my opinion, confer those advantages by producing a reconciliation between the higher and lower orders, by banishing the suspicion of injustice, and generating an amicable sentiment towards the government, which will conduce to the gradual diffusion of peaceable points, by teaching the people to look up to the law as their certain protection, instead of seeking redress by acts of outrage, and by effacing that line of religious demarcation which has rooted a disposition to insult in the privileged and fevered class, and a feeling of deep resentment in the lower orders of the community. The Catholics

are constantly made the objects of the most galling contumely. I shall mention an example afforded by a person in the employment of government; a gentleman at the head of the police in the county of Wexford, not long ago told a number of Roman Catholics who happened to be assembled together, that he would direct his police men to shoot the Papists like rats. This insult excited the strongest feeling of resentment among them; the result was, that an investigation was directed by the lord lieutenant into the matter; the Roman Catholic Association sent down counsel; it was ascertained that those words had been spoken, and the gentleman who had spoken them was removed from that place and sent to another. It is quite obvious that such words would never have been used, if the ignominious distinction between Catholic and Protestant were removed. If a Protestant gentleman employed language so insulting, what may not be expected from the lower orders of Protestants. The word Papist" is constantly in their mouths. The degradation with which it is supposed to be attended, excites feelings of the deepest animosity among the people. There would be an end to those animosities at once if the Catholic question were settled, because there would be an end to that injurious ascéndency, which is personal as well as political.

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Do they conceive that granting emancipation would, from this situation of degradation, raise them to a footing of proper equality with their fellow subjects?—I am certain of it.

Do they talk much about the question, or take much interest in it ?-It is, I understand from those who know them best, the subject which chiefly occupies their attention.

Do you mean among the lower orders?-Yes, among the lower

orders.

Why are they to be considered as disqualified from exercising the elective franchise, if they are in the constant habit of talking on elective matters? They all know the power of their landlords. The landlord requires a very high rent, which generally speaking the tenant is not able to pay, and if the tenant disobeys the landlord at the election, he will not of course take into account the inability of the tenant to discharge his rent, but will immediately distrain him. The peasantry therefore have no discretion on the subject.

Deducting that influence from the landlord, you think that from their general intelligence they are capable of making a proper distinction between the individuals who are candidates for the county, and thus exercising their elective franchise?—They may be qualified to form a judgment upon the Catholic question, which is a subject that touches them nearly; they have perpetual opportunities of observing and feeling the practical evils that re

sult from the penal code; and they are therefore qualified to judge upon the fitness of an individual to sit in Parliament, so far as that question is concerned. It is upon that question only that they now exercise any opinion.

What do you think would be the effect of a law, which raised the qualification to a twenty-pound freehold, would it be to throw more power into the hands of the Protestant voter than he at present possesses?—I am not very well qualified to give an opinion upon the subject; I have heard among Roman Catholics themselves, a great dissent of opinion with respect to it. I believe, that in some counties it would operate in one way, and in other counties in a different way; but I am sure of this, that freeholders, whose qualification was raised, would be quite free from religious prejudice, and would be disposed to consult their own individual interests in giving their votes, without any sort of reference to the particular form of Christianity professed by any candidate.

You think there would not be any partiality, on the part of a Roman Catholic voter, in favour of a Roman Catholic candidate? -I think that after a year, or some such short period, after the question had been carried, no such partiality would be manifested. I know that at first there might be some ebullition of popular sentiment; even now, a Protestant, entertaining opinions favourable to the Roman Catholic claims, is rather preferred to a Roman Catholic by the people, than regarded with any evil eye. I am quite convinced that elections would, in Ireland, be decided by higher personal and political qualifications, and by the ascendancy of wealth and rank. As an illustration, I beg to mention that the plebeians of ancient Rome, who were excluded for a considerable time from offices of honour and emolument, which excited deep animosities in the commonwealth, elected a patrician to the prætorship, immediately after the power of electing a plebeian had been obtained. Livy says, that the circumstance deserves note. There would be an end to all religious faction in Ireland, when the law had ceased to provoke it; and former feuds would be speedily forgotten.

Veneris 4 die Martii, 1825.

LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.

Daniel O'Connell, Esquire, again called in; and made the following Statement:

IN consequence of a question proposed to me, by an honourable member of the Committee, respecting the Orange lecture, I thought it right to look out for the entry of that which he alluded to, and I have brought it here; it is what I got as the Orange lecture, taken from the 68th Psalm, and it entirely confirms his statement of it; with the permission of the Committee, I will read it "From whence came you?" "From the deep,""What deep?" "The deep of the sea,"-"Whither go you?" "To the hill."- "What hill?" "Even an high hill as the hill of Bashan."-"Who shall conduct you thither?" "The Lord of whom cometh salvation."-"Have you a pass-word?""I have.""Will you give it to me?" "I did not obtain it so myself, but I will divide it with a true brother, knowing him to be such;" then the querist, "Begin-Answer-no, do you begin. Querist, Re-answer. Mem. querist, ber. Re-mem-ber." This is the entrance pass-word, and is accompanied with three knocks; the grand pass-word is "Sinai." The sign is made by putting the fourth finger of the right-hand to the mouth; the answer is, by the other person placing his right hand upon his left breast. I beg leave to add to that, that of course my own private belief goes entirely with the assertion of the honourable member, being quite convinced that he would say nothing of his own knowledge but what was perfectly true; and if I shall ever have an opportunity of speaking upon this subject again in public, I will take care to accompany any thing I say, with the confidence I have in the honourable gentleman's asser. tion, and having said that I would wish to point his attention to the psalm itself, because I give up my informer entirely; and may I be allowed to say, that the gentleman to whom I gave my honour not to mention his name, though he knew me well, I understood, was a student of Trinity College, but I could not tell his name positively, I only conjecture his name; I consider him therefore, and the person who informed me for money, as certainly persons on whom no faith can be distinctly relied, that I think right to say now. The psalm itself is the 68th, it begins "Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered; let them also that hate him flee before him." The hill of Bashan is mentioned in the words of the 15th verse; "The hill of God

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is as the hill of Bashan, an high hill as the hill of Bashan;" those are the very words, and the 17th has the pass-word, "Sinai." "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels, the Lord is among them as in the holy place of Sinai." Then, "Who shall conduct you thither? The Lord, of whom cometh salvation." That is taken from the 20th verse. "He is our God even the God of whom cometh salvation;" Then the place they come from-"From the deepwhat deep?" The deep of the sea, is taken from the twentysecond verse, "The Lord hath said I will bring my people again as I did from Bashan, mine own will I bring again as I did sometime from the deep of the sea." Then it is in the next verse, comes the object of bringing them from the deep of the sea. "That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and that the tongue of thy dogs may be red through the same;" so that as they come from the deep of the sea conducted by the Lord God, how easily a vulgar furious person of the lower class might add this verse to that very one from which the first part is taken, as in fact it makes part of the same sentence. I wish to give that explanation as the reason that my credit was attached even to a person that I would not easily believe; however I repeat again, that what the honourable member said, has considerably affected any belief I had upon that subject; in as far as gentlemen of his class are concerned, I am convinced; but there are low and vulgar persons also Orangemen,

Will you be good enough to inform the Committee, from what law offices Catholics are excluded in Ireland?-The Catholics are excluded from all the superior offices of the law; from the office of Chancellor, from the office of the Master of the Rolls, the Judges of the Court of Exchequer, Common Pleas, King's Bench, Admi ralty Courts, Ecclesiastical Courts; of course from all those sta tions: they are also excluded from the office of Attorney or Solicitor General, or Serjeant, Counsel to the Revenue Boards, which in Ireland are places of very great emolument, and also from the office of King's Counsel, the salary of which, I believe, is about thirty-six shillings a year, the advantages of which are very great even in this country, but are infinitely greater in Ireland, where we practise in all the courts, and where precedence is infinitely more valuable to each individual: Catholics cannot be Masters in Chancery.

Can a Catholic be a proctor in the Ecclesiastical Court?-In practice they are not allowed to be so; I do not recollect whether the law precludes them, but in practice they are not; I believe the law excludes them. Catholics are not allowed to be advocates, although in point of law they may be such; Mr. Lynch, a gentleman of the bar, a Catholic, applied for a man

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