Lord Fingal, and who is a gentleman of a most respectable Catholic family, told me, that Lord Castlereagh had, about the time of the Union, promised him the situation of assistant barrister, and when a vacancy occurred, he applied to the government to fulfil the promise: he was then informed, that there were reasons which precluded the possibility of appointing him; but that to reward him for the disappointment, he should receive a pension of 400l. a year, being the salary of assistant barrister; he added, that he had no doubt upon his mind, that government declined to appoint him on account of his religion.

Is he alive now?-He is.

Did Mr. Bellew mention in what year it was that this took place?—No, he did not. I believe it was Lord Redesdale who prevented his appointment, inasmuch as Lord Redesdale was of opinion that no Roman Catholic should have a situation in the administration of justice, at all connected with judicial power.

Did he get the pension?-He did, and it was afterwards increased; thus the individual was rewarded, but the class to which he belonged was stigmatized. The government have a great patronage connected with the Irish bar; there are nearly as many places as there are barristers; and I think when I find that no Roman Catholic has been appointed since the year 1793, with the exception of Mr. Farrell, and when I consider that there are many individuals of the Catholic bar, of talent, knowledge, and assiduity, of whom none are promoted, I must conclude that it is their religion which stands in the way of their promotion; it is the opinion of the whole bar that if Mr. Bellew had been a Protestant, he would have reached the height of his profession. In consequence of his not having been appointed King's counsel, he has much less business in chancery, for which he is admirably qualified. None but King's counsel can be much employed in the Irish Court of Chancery. The individual who follows seven or eight King's counsel, cannot expect a very favourable audience. I mention Mr. Bellew's case as one of severe hardship.

Mr. Thompson, to whom you have referred, is a barrister, is he not?-I always understood that he was an attorney. These facts illustrate the justice of my assertion, that religion enters into the consideration of the government, in the allocation of its rewards, and in making appointments to situations which Catholics are capable of holding.

Sometimes an individual at the bar holds language, with respect to government, which might make it difficult to select him?Sometimes individuals use language which may provoke the resentment, and perhaps in some cases incur even the just censure of government; but allowance ought to be made for the use of expressions which are prompted by what those individuals regard

as monstrous wrong; that language is suggested by not mal emotions. In the midst of large assemblies, the passions of men become heated, and if vehemence of expression is employed, it is provoked by injury, and by that state of feeling which is produced by the law. But the individuals alluded to are few in number. There are not above two or three Catholic barristers who take such an active share in political proceedings, as can be offensive to government. The rest of the bar, although greatly irritated by the injustice of their exclusion from place and honour, from motives of personal prudence abstain from all interference, yet the silent and more accommodating persons are as much overlooked as the bolder and more angry few who complain of politi cal injustice. I may be permitted to add, with respect to the individuals who take a part in public proceedings, that I am persuaded they not only would not employ vehement language in public assemblies, but that if the Catholic question was settled, they would scarcely enter into any public assembly whatever; at least I can answer for myself, if I had a fair chance of reaching that station in my profession for which my faculties may perhaps disqualify me, but in the way to which, in addition to the disqualification which may be produced by my incapacity, the law has created exasperating impediments; I say if those obstructions were removed, I should take no further part in political concerns, for I am satisfied, that so far from assisting the advancement of an advocate in his profession, an interference in politics arrests his progress, and if I interfere at present, it is because I consider it a duty to use every effort to procure a removal of the disqualifications under which I labour.

Do you think, in case the general question of Catholic emancipation were settled by Parliament, there would be a power existing in any individual to get public assemblies together, and to create a combined operation in Ireland?-I am convinced that it would not be in the power of any man, no matter however great his influence might be, nor no matter how perverse his ambition might be, to draw large convocations of men together in Ireland; nothing but the sense of individual injury produces these great and systematic gatherings, through the medium of which so much passion and so much inflammatory matter is conveyed through the country. Let me take the question of the Union as an example; there are many who suppose, that if the Catholic question were to be satisfactorily arranged, the merits of the Union would be discussed. But I am convinced, that if the Catholic question were settled, a great body of the population, so far from being dissatisfied, would be perfectly contented with the Union, or be indifferent to it. Whenever any mention is made in a Roman Catholic assembly of the evils of that measure, it is made

for the purposes of rhetorical excitement, and not with any serious view, upon the part of the speaker, to disturb that which, in my humble judgment, is perfectly indissoluble. In answer to the question, I beg to add this, that I am perfectly convinced that neither upon tithes, nor the Union, nor any other political subject, could the people of Ireland be powerfully and permanently excited: at present individuals feel themselves aggrieved by the law, and it is not so much from public sentiment, as from a sense of individual injustice, that they are marshalled and combined together.

Do you happen to know the proportions of Roman Catholics and Protestants who are employed in the Police ?-I myself do not know it exactly; but a Parliamentary return has been published on the subject, and I believe in the county of Limerick it appears there were not above forty police men Catholic, out of a hundred and fifty.

You stated the inequality of the numbers as the ground upon which you formed an opinion, that the government was influenced by that principle in making the appointment?-When I find a decided minority of Roman Catholics in the police, where there is so decided a majority in the population, and where I find the police are selected from the lower orders, I must consider religion as the principle on which the selection is made. In Dublin I believe almost the whole police are Protestant.

By whom are the police men appointed ?-I believe the police men are appointed at present by the chief constables. Speaking on the subject of the police, I may be perhaps allowed to mention the case of one Delap, as connected with the administration of justice, from which subject the examination has diverged. I was about to state several facts, which shew the administration of justice is not perfectly pure, when I was led from that topic to other matter; I am prepared to state other facts.

Did you ever know an instance in which the question of religion actually interfered with the appointment or non-appointment of a police man?-No; for my occupations are of such a nature as put me out of the way of obtaining knowledge of that kind; but I can mention a fact which exhibits the feeling of the people upon the subject, and their suspicions generate as great an evil as if that principle operated. I recollect a police man was found guilty at the last assizes at Clonmel, of murder. I walked through the streets after the conviction, and attended particularly to the observations of the lower orders respecting this conviction. Many of the people said, "We are sure he will not be executed, because he is a Protestant:" that is a most fatal feeling, and means ought to be taken to remove it.

Do you think that individual ought to have been executed ?

He ought not to have been hanged, because, though it was mur der in law, it was not in morals: he had drunk too much; he was returning to the place where he was quartered from Clonmel, upon a car; a peasant lad came out on a sudden, in the dusk of the evening, from a house on the road, and made some clamour or noise. The police man conceived that this boy was going to shoot him; he resolved to anticipate him, and shot him dead; the boy had no arms in his hands. Under these circumstances it was thought by the judge that the police man ought to be spared; but the lower orders, without knowing any thing of the facts, said, as a matter of course, He is a Protestant, and of course

will be pardoned."

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Do you think the proportion of the population is a consideration which ought to guide the government in their appointments? -I think it ought to be taken into consideration; government should endeavour to conciliate and tranquillize a great body of the community, who not only have the power of acquiring wealth and intelligence, but have actually acquired both; they ought to take into consideration the feelings of that great body, who not only find themselves branded on account of their religion, but who sustain actual and positive deprivation. A wise government, in its appointments, ought to regard the feelings of the majority of the people.

You go the Leinster circuit ?-I do.

Do you happen to know the proportion that Roman Catholics and Protestants bear to each other in the Excise department ?-I do not; but I know the Custom-house of Dublin was filled not only with Protestants, but with Orangemen; that evil, I believe, has been cured; I believe a great purification of the Custom-house has taken place.

In what mode has the purification been effected ?-I believe, by the Commissioners appointed for the purpose.

Has it been by the removal of the Protestants, or the insertion of Catholics ?-I believe it has arisen from making a selection from a better and a more fitting class; the Custom-house was an object of patronage with the government; Members of Parliament constantly exercised their influence for the purpose of obtaining small places connected with the Custom-house: in consequence, very unworthy persons were appointed; those persons were generally Protestants; being brought together into one office, their feelings were strengthened by cohesion; they valued themselves on their religion; men assumed the pretensions of high gentlemen, who had only one qualification of a gentleman in Ireland, namely, the Protestant religion.

What principle do you suppose influenced the Members of Parliament in recommending those persons?The Members of

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Parliament who recommended the individuals did not probably take their religion at all into the account; but the persons employed in the Custom-house were of the description I have mentioned, and put on all the airs and insolence of Orangeism.

Do you know that in the Revenue there are very few Roman Catholics? I do not; I know some persons who have been employed in the Custom-house; I learned from them, that the clerks were Orangemen; their discourse turned upon the necessity of keeping Papists down.

The point with which you set out was, that there was not a fair opening to the admission of Roman Catholics, and that the Roman Catholics were excluded by the practice of the government? I stated it with reference to the police, and with respect to my own profession, of which, of course, I have more accurate knowledge; with respect to the Revenue, I believe the majority of persons in employment are Protestants, and also Orangemen, but I am not able to state whether the principle of their original appointment was connected with religion; the supporters of Ascendency would naturally take religion into

account.

. Are you aware that Mr. Thery, the Commissioner of Excise, and Mr. Troy, who is at present Collector of Limerick, are both Catholics?-I am aware of it; Mr. Thery told me he was appointed in consequence of a special recommendation from Mr. Edmund Burke, given many years ago, and afterwards attended to.

Do you know at what time they were admitted; by what Administration?—I believe it was by the Bedford Administration.

You mean to say then, that, in point of fact, the Roman Catholics do not enjoy a fair proportion of the patronage of government?-I am sure of it; the promotions at the bar establish the fact.

Do you know any thing of the Post-office in Dublin?-No; I know only one individual who holds a place in the Post-office of Dublin, and he is a Roman Catholic; but he has informed me, that the conversation which takes place in the Post-office among the clerks (persons holding offices analogous to his own) perpetually turns upon the necessity of supporting Orangemen, and keeping the Papists in subjection.

Do you know the proportion of Roman Catholics and Protestants in that establishment ?—I do not.

Which do you think preponderate?-If I may be allowed to conjecture, or to do more than conjecture, and to presume that government act, with respect to the Post-office, in the same way as I believe they do with respect to other departments, I should say that Protestants preponderate.

The Post-office is not a department on which you have formed