important an occasion as the present, I think it right to maintain, that I do not distinctly recollect that he did state it: upon the other hand, I will not negative that statement.

The inference which was natural to be drawn from that statement to you was, that the person so retiring had, in the interval, a communication from Mr. Peel; and that, in consequence of that communication, the question with respect to religion, was afterwards put?-Unquestionably it was my object to convey by insinuation, what I did not think judicious directly to affirm; but I think it right to add, that my own firm conviction is, that religion is, more or less, made the test in the allocation of even the most minor office in Ireland.

Your intention was to convey an impression, that that question with respect to religion was put by the directions of Mr. Peel, either at that moment given, or previously communicated ?-My object at that time was to intimate to the public, that the suggestion had been made by Mr. Peel; my impression then was, that the question was put by his direction; I now think, from the manner of Mr. Peel's examination, that Mr. Peel did not in that specific instance direct the question to be put, but that it was asked by an inferior officer, from his knowledge of the habits and the mind of the then Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, under whom he acted, and from the principles on which promotion is carried on.

You have no distinct reason for making that assertion; you had no ground except your own surmise for stating that that question had originated with Mr. Peel?-I did not state that question had originated with Mr. Peel; I merely left it to be inferred.

Had you, at the time you left it so to be inferred, any distinct ground whatever upon which you could rest such an assertion? -I have this fact; that a person in the employment of Mr. Peel, who must have been acquainted with his habits of thinking and his feelings, had asked the question, and I think I was not unfair in attributing that question to a higher source.

Are you quite sure that Sir Edward Littlehales was the person who put that question to Mr. M'Dougal ?-I am not sure of it; Sir Edward's name was mentioned to me in the course of the conversation, but whether in reference to this particular part of the case, I cannot take upon myself to say; I believe it was his name that was mentioned, but I cannot positively affirm it.

Do you think it fair to infer, merely that a particular question originated with an individual whom you name, when all you know is, that it was put by another person, between which person and the individual named, you think there is a general accordance in political sentiments ?-I do think it quite fair; I think it very

natural that the “winking of authority" should be attended to by any persons holding inferior capacities.

In this case you imply a particular fact, although you admit that you have no reason whatever to believe that fact actually to have taken place?—I found a specific fact; I found that the question was asked by a person in the employment or in dependancy on Mr. Peel.

How do you know that fact?-I was told by Mr. M'Dougal, that the question was asked by a person at the Castle, who was the individual through whom the communication was made to Mr. Peel; he told me that the question was asked of him just before he had the interview with Mr. Peel.

And by Sir Edward Littlehales?-I do not state that positively; I endeavour to distinguish between my perfect recollection and my more obscure belief.

Did Mr. M'Dougal state what passed between himself and Mr. Peel ?-He did not; the conversation between Mr. M'Dougal and me did not at that time produce any deep impression upon me; it was casual; it was stated merely in common convivial intercourse, without any object whatever upon the part of Mr. M'Dougal. I afterwards happened to recollect it, and I found that it illustrated the general principle upon which the government had acted; when I find all the inferior offices almost universally filled with Protestants; when I find the police filled by Protestants, I cannot help thinking that it is the principle by which government are swayed.

You stated, that what you meant to state was as a charge against Mr. Peel; that the application for reward being made to him in favour of an individual, he wished to ascertain the religious creed of that individual, before he decided on the amount and nature of that reward; that was the charge which you meant to bring against Mr. Peel, and which you distinctly stated. It now appears that you had no grounds upon which you could have been warranted in asserting that the question, admitting it to have been put by any body, did arise directly or indirectly from Mr. Peel? I did not distinctly state that the question was put at the instance of Mr. Peel. I now state that, in my opinion, a general system exists in Ireland, which would have prompted the question; and that I should conceive that Mr. Peel, acting only in consistency with the principles which he had ever avowed, would not only naturally, but perhaps justifiably, have asked the question.

You infer then, from the question which was put by an inferior officer about the Castle, that the answer to that question would be considered as a matter of some importance by the superior officers of government ?-I do; I think that the persons at

the head of the government would not have been swayed by any religious consideration, in determining what sum of money ought to be given to Kirwin. I think his religion would have been entirely left out of the mere pecuniary question; but I think the government would have been swayed by the consideration of his religion in determining to what place he should be advanced; and that is the reason why I think the question was put.

Were you rightly understood, that this communication from Mr. M'Dougal to you was not a formal communication for the purpose of placing you in possession of those facts, but a casual observation at a dinner table, with perhaps other persons present?It was a casual conversation; there were other persons present, but it was told to me in a whisper; Mr. M'Dougal mentioned to me, that when the question was put to him whether Kirwin was a Protestant, he answered, that Kirwin did not ask whether the eleven persons whom he saved were Protestants at the time he was plunging into the sea.

It was not then a formal communication made by Mr. M'Dougal, for the purpose of your instituting any public proceedings upon it ?-Certainly not; it was merely accidental.

Are you at all aware how many persons were engaged in saving the lives of the soldiers at that shipwreck ?---I believe that no individual whatever exerted himself to save the lives of the soldiers on board the two transports that were wrecked, except this individual; I believe the crowd on the sea-coast assembled together for the purpose of plundering the wrecks, a practice not confined to Ireland, but which prevails as extensively on the coast of Cornwall; so far was their barbarity carried, that they actually cut off the fingers of the dead bodies of some women for the purpose of obtaining rings.

But you understood there was no other individual actually employed in saving the lives of those soldiers?---I believe no other.

From whom do you get your information; have you examined into it yourself?--I recollect the statement made in the public newspaper at the time; I recollect the statement made by Mr. M'Dougal; and I have also the statement of Kirwin himself.

How great a length of time elapsed between this conversation which you had with Mr. M'Dougal and the public statement which you made, to which your examination has been directed ?--I cannot state with much distinctness; I think about three or four years.

Had you made inquiry into the facts in the interval at all?--I made none; I knew that those transports had been wrecked; I knew that this Kirwin had distinguished himself by his humanity,

and I believed Mr. M'Dougal's statement to me (he was a highly respectable gentleman) to be fact.

It was then from your recollection of this casual conversation with Mr. M'Dougal at this table, and without any particular inquiries as to the conduct of Kirwin in the mean time, that you made the public statement to which reference has been made?-It was; and in making that statement, I selected the fact with no other view than that of putting the general principle in a more conspicuous light.

Have you heard that any other persons were rewarded for having shared in the merits of that transaction to which you refer P.--No.

Did Kirwin go out in a boat?---No; he is a very expert swimmer, he swam repeatedly from the shore to the wrecks, and saved the lives of eleven men.

Did he state that he was dissatisfied with the reward at the time?--No; he appeared on the contrary to be grateful for the little which had been done for him.

Has not the 30%. he then received been the chief source of his prosperity since ?---I hardly think, that even in so wretched a country as Ireland, 30l. would be considered as having made a man's fortune.

If he had remained in gaol from inability to pay 67. do not you think that 30%. makes a great difference to a man in that situation of life?---It makes a difference; but I think government should have taken into their consideration the extent of the service he had performed, and the nobleness of the action, as well as the poverty of his circumstances.

Why do you think government ought to have acted upon the representation of Mr. M'Dougal alone, in preference to that of General Doyle?--I am not disposed to say so; for it would be very unreasonable, that the government should have preferred the mere dictum of Mr. M'Dougal, to the authorized statement of General Doyle.

Did Mr. M'Dougal say, that he had advised a larger sum to be given to this man?-He did not tell me that he had given any

advice at all.

He did not tell you, that he had received any reward ?-He reward?-He told me he had received some reward.

Did you mention that in your speech?---I did not; and I have before mentioned that; I perhaps deserve some sort of blame for not having added the fact; but I consider, that if I had mentioned, that a man who had saved the lives of eleven persons, among whom there were three officers, had received so miserable a sum as 30l. as a reward, I should not have stated any thing redounding to the credit of government.

Do not you think that the officers themselves ought to have given him something ?--I do; Kirwin said the officers did not give him a single penny.

Do you know, that in Ireland, country servants are engaged for five and six pounds a year?-Yes; but this man is above the condition of a servant; he told me, he farms lands at present, for which he pays 1007. a year; whether his doing so, arises from his having received 301. I must leave to the Committee to determine. You say, that you merely stated this case, as an instance of the injustice which you knew to prevail in the government, that of excluding the Roman Catholics from situations to which they were otherwise eligible?--I stated that my object in mentioning that circumstance, was to put in a more conspicuous and striking point of view, the principle upon which, I was convinced, that government acted.

Upon what facts does your conviction of the mode in which government act, rest?-A great majority of the people of Ireland are Roman Catholics; the police which is selected from the lower orders, are almost entirely Protestants. This remark is equally applicable to other pursuits and professions. I shall take my own profession as a strong example. Since the year 1793, there have been about one hundred and twenty Roman Catholics admitted to the bar; some time ago I went to the hanaper office, to ascertain for the present Attorney-General for Ireland, the number of Roman Catholics who had been admitted to the bar since 1793; I found there had been one hundred and five Roman Catholics and about eight hundred Protestants admitted up to the same period; not a single Roman Catholie barrister had been promoted, with the exception of Mr. Farrell, (who has been recently appointed, I believe through the personal regard of Lord Wellesley) to any place to which Roman Catholics are admissible by law. The exclusion of so large a body from all employment, led me to the conclusion, that the profession of the Roman Catholic religion was an obstacle to professional promotion. It is right that I should here observe, that Mr. Blake, a Roman Catholic, has been appointed Remembrancer of the court of Exchequer. For that gentleman, Lord Wellesley is known to entertain a strong friendship, which may account for his seleetion in despite of his religion. He was not a member of the Irish bar, nor is his office, I believe, necessarily connected with the bar. Its duties were formerly filled by Mr. Thompson, an attorney. It is right that I should observe, that my remarks, as to the exclusion of Roman Catholics, were not intended to apply to Lord Wellesley's administration. Let me be permitted to mention, as an exemplification of this sectarian principle of selection, a fact in an individual case. Mr. Bellew, who is connected with