How many parishes are there ?-About 2,500.

The bishops have generally parishes, have they not?—Yes; they could not subsist without them.

What, in your opinion, should be the stipend of the bishops? -That is a very delicate subject; but I should think eight hundred or a thousand a-year, and an archbishop fourteen or fifteen hundred.

Can you inform the Committee, from what sources the present income of the Roman Catholic clergyman is derived ?-As well as I know it, it is this; speaking now of the country parishes, there is an obligation in Ireland of going to confession and communion twice a-year, at Easter and at Christmas, including some period before and after Easter, and before and after Christmas; they get, in general, two shillings a family at least, and where they are more solvent, two shillings from the man, and two shillings from the woman, at each of those stations; they do not get it at the time of confession, confession cannot be connected with money, because, as the absolution is a portion of the sacrament of confession, it is necessary in the Catholic church, that it should not be at all connected with money.

Does the Catholic priest get the 2s. from each person at each confession?-A shilling on each occasion, according to the solvency of the parties; they are expected to get something at each christening, a shilling or two; they get 5s. in general for each marriage; then the wealthier Catholics pay a pound or a guinea; then they get money for saying masses for the dead; and after a person of any solvency, or a more decent farmer, has died, his relations make it a point of piety to have masses said for him, and contribute for that purpose; the priest says those masses at his leisure.

Is it not the practice, at marriages and burials, for the priest to go about, and collect offerings from the persons who assemble to do honour either to the marriage or the burial ?-No, I do not know that the priest ever went about; it was usual at marriages, and still subsists at some places, that a collection is made by a friend of the man or the woman, frequently by a friend of the man among his friends, and a friend of the woman among her friends; and during the war, when the peasants were solvent, there was a rivalry among them which should give the priests most.

You allude to the benefit which had been derived from the education at Maynooth; do you think the persons who have derived their education at Maynooth were superior to those who had been educated elsewhere ?-In point of information, I think they are; in point of allegiance, under a proper system, they certainly would be, because foreign education of the priests may be made a dangerous instrument; and I have some reason to apprehend that

that danger is not quite visionary; at this moment those educated at Maynooth are better educated; for no one could go into the priesthood formerly young, they must have remained until they were twenty-three, and three months before they could be priested; they could not go abroad before they were priested, for though they got foundations, it was necessary for them to have the benefit of masses in the churches where they were founded, to contribute to their support. That education, properly speaking, began about the age of twenty-four; whereas now, at Maynooth, it begins at the earliest periods; and when they enter Maynooth at seventeen, they must be very excellent scholars; and the system of exclusion is very much, from every thing but their studies and collegiate duties; and the human mind obtains infinitely more of learning when it has facilities, than the mere system necessary for the particular profession actually requires.

Have you turned your attention to the qualification of the freeholders of forty shillings?—Yes.

Are there not at present a number of persons, in consequence of that low qualification, put upon the register books, who are by no means fit persons to enjoy the elective franchise?—I do not know that; that is not my opinion; I have a very strong notion of the advantage of extending, under proper regulations, so as to avoid tumult or undue influence, the elective franchise; I do not know any householder to whom it would be improper, if the thing were well managed, to give the right to vote, if the mode of taking the vote was well managed.

Do you conceive, that the system of forty-shilling freeholds, connected as it now is with the law, between landlord and tenant, is such as to insure fair representation?-It is impossible to say that; it has its advantages and disadvantages; it gives to the owners of great estates great influence, that I believe is a good deal in the spirit of the modern practice in Parliamentary representation; it opens the door, however, for considerable frauds, and though I am quite convinced of the frauds, I see great difficulties in altering it. I should be glad, though it is a very crude opinion, if the qualification were five pounds.

Do you conceive, that raising the qualification to five pounds, would, when accompanied with the concession of what is generally called Catholic emancipation, give satisfaction in Ireland to the Roman Catholics?-Conceding Catholic emancipation, in the spirit in which it ought to be conceded in order to be useful, it ought to be, if given, given in a liberal spirit; I think the inhabitants of Ireland would be so connected with the government, and the present distinction so much abolished, that whether forty shillings or five pounds, would be a question equally affecting

Roman Catholics or Protestants, and that the Catholics would be satisfied with any arrangement which the Protestants were satisfied with.

You do not conceive, that so connected, any dissatisfaction would prevail on the part of the Roman Catholics?—That is my impression; I think if it were so connected, no dissatisfaction would arise.

Do you conceive it would be practicable or safe to alter the elective franchise, to raise the qualification without connecting it with Roman Catholic emancipation?—I think it would be totally unsafe; I think it would be a most dangerous attempt in legislation to increase the qualification, and thereby disqualify a great many Roman Catholics, without giving them emancipation.

The answer you have made, is taking the qualification of five pounds instead of forty shillings; would you conceive, that the same answer would apply, if the qualification was raised still higher than five pounds?-No; my opinion upon that subject, as I said before, is not a very decided one; I would see the advantage of some increase, but I should be afraid of going as high as 101.

Are you of opinion, that such an alteration of the qualification would, in effect, diminish the body and influence of the Roman Catholics?—I do not think raising it to 5l. or 101. or 20l. would diminish the Roman Catholic influence. The occupiers of the soil are almost all, or so many of them, Roman Catholics, that 10. or even 20/. would not make an essential difference in that respect, and might have a contrary effect; for the forty-shilling freeholders are more the property of the Protestant proprietors, and it might weaken what might be called the Protestant interest, to increase the qualification.

Do you make a distinction between the alteration of the franchise in counties and cities ?-I do not, in that answer. As far as I know of cities, the forty-shilling freeholder is that which ought to be allowed to subsist; I think in cities it ought not to be increased.

Where there is concurrent right in freemen and freeholders, the effect of the alteration of the elective franchise of the freeholder would be, to throw a kind of superiority in the hands of the freeman?-Undoubtedly; my answer as to cities is in relation of that; I know of no city or town that, in itself, has the right of representation in Ireland, in which the freemen do not vote. Mallow is not an exception, for that is a manor, not

a mere town.

In the event of the qualification in cities being raised, would not the effect be, to place the return in the hands of the corporations of those places?-The effect of striking out the fortyshilling freeholds in cities would be, to place the return in the

hands of the corporation of those places, completely and irretrievably.

Would not that be a measure that would give dissatisfaction, and produce danger in those places ?-Great dissatisfaction to a very valuable class of people, thriving commercial men.

Have you ever considered that it is desirable that the fortyshilling freeholder or indeed any freeholder holding his freehold by lease, should not vote, unless his rent had been paid ?—I should think it certainly an advantage, but there are great difficulties about carrying it into practice; I think it would be a great advantage, if practical.

Would it not have the effect of disfranchising, at any election you have known, nine-tenths of the freeholders ?-Yes, at any election I have known hitherto, certainly it would disfranchise a great many.

Would it not secure this object, that the freeholder would be a person of more substance and property than at present ?—Yes, if he had bona fide paid his rent; but it would enable a direct bribe to be given for his rent, or the candidate would qualify him to vote, by having some friend to pay the rent.

Would it not raise the freeholder to a more independent situation? It certainly would, and would be, I am convinced, upon the whole, a decided benefit to the system; the only dif culty is the mode of carrying it into effect.

Would it be more difficult to carry it into effect, than raising the qualification?-I believe not; the question comes suddenly upon me, but my opinion is, it would be the easier of the two, to have the rent paid off.

Why do you think that qualification for voting in counties, that is not attended with any inconvenience in England, should be attended with inconvenience in Ireland?-In England, I understand that the greater part of the forty-shilling tenures are fee-simple tenures, where the persons who possess the votes have absolute dominion, and are not therefore the property and serfs of any other person; in Ireland, it happened that they are made freeholders for election purposes; and it seems to my mind, that they make the same distinctions as in corporations, regular freemen and occasional freemen.

If, therefore, the state of society, with reference to rural arrangements in Ireland, was to be more assimilated to that which exists in England, the objection to forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland would vanish?-In my mind, it would be totally done away; in my humble judgment, it would not be at all right to meddle with them; I have not expressed any opinion favourable to raising the franchise at all.

Do you think that that species of improvement in Ireland, which there is fair reason to believe exists, has a tendency to

place the social system in Ireland more upon a footing of similarity to that of England in that respect, and therefore to correct the evil of forty-shilling freeholders?—I am entirely of that opinion; I think the progressive improvement in Ireland is such, as is calculated to do away a great deal of the inconvenience of the present system, and to render it quite unnecessary, if it ever were necessary, to make any alteration certainly unadvisable.

Would it be likely that the great proprietors will parcel out their estates in fee-simple freeholds, as long as the present system of political influence exists in Ireland, through the means of forty-shilling freeholders? I do not expect that the proprietors of Ireland will ever make donations of the fee, or sell it; but persons acquiring property, may purchase small estates; a most desirable thing, if we could see it in Ireland.

Jovis, 3° die Martii, 1825.

THE RIGHT HON. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,

IN THE CHAIR.

Richard Shiell, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

Do you know any thing with respect to the administration of justice on the circuits; and if so, have the goodness to give a statement of any thing, in consequence of which inconvenience has been sustained ?—If I am asked with respect to what I have observed on my own circuit, independently of what I know has taken place in other parts of Ireland, especially in Dublin, I answer, that I have observed upon my own circuit what I conceive to be at least imperfections in the administration of justice, arising from two sources; the first I conceive to be religious; and the second aristocratic. I have observed that there is not that just regard for the rights and interests of the lower orders, which I believe is entertained in this country. In the county of Wexford, for instance, it is an habitual observation among the Bar, that in cases between landlord and tenant, there is, I will not say an undue partiality, but there is a strong partiality existing in the minds of juries in favour of the landlord. I know it is commonly said among the Bar on my circuit, that in cases between landlord and tenant, the tenant has but a slender chance, unless his case be almost irresistible. I consider that the feeling by which juries are influenced, is in a great measure aristocratic, but I think the aristocratic feeling is