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You were in Cork while the poll was taking down, were you not? No, I was not.

Did you happen to hear, that in any instances the Roman Catholics had turned by force out of the booths, those who were about to vote for one of the candidates ?—I do not think I did, but that might take place; in the best regulated counties, at elections there are riots.

Have you known any instances of Roman Catholics having been, after an election, ruined by their landlords for having voted against them at elections ?-Yes.

Have you known many such instances ?-No, I think not many.

Do you think the Roman Catholic tenantry would be likely to endanger their ruin in consequence of such persuasion as you refer to? No, I do not think they would; in the county of Cork, one gentleman, averse to the Roman Catholic interests, would bring five or six hundred Roman Catholics to vote for a member who in Parliament would vote against the Catholics.

Have you not known many hundreds of Roman Catholics, forty-shilling freeholders, carried through the interest of the clergy against their landlords ?-No, I have not.

Have you any doubt that many hundreds have been ?-Not through the interest of the clergy alone; the clergy, when they take a part in elections, have influence; and I beg to repeat, that it is only latterly, I think, that the disposition is increasing in Ireland, in consequence of the state of affairs, but they make part of the Catholic influence; I do not think it has ever gone to that extent; several have in my judgment been so influenced, but to say hundreds is beyond my idea of it.

Have you ever known instances of almost the whole tenantry of landlords being carried against him by the priests ?—I have heard of instances of that kind, and believe that such things have existed, by priests aided by Catholic laymen.

Do you think that mere persuasion would induce the tenantry of an Irish landlord to incur the risk of his displeasure ?-I do, certainly; I have seen intense interest in a forty-shilling freeholder, and he is after all so near the labourer, though there is a grade between them, that if his feelings are warm he will make the sacrifice, and become a labourer; and then, on the other hand, the persons in whose interest he has voted, will be induced to pay a gales rent, which is the utmost that can be due of him, to clear him of rent, and then he is able to pay his rent in future, and his landlord has not dominion over him."

Admitting that the Roman Catholic clergy do not make it a matter of sacramental obligation, do you not believe that they have recommended it as a duty due to their religion, and as a

service well pleasing to heaven, to take a particular course?-I do not think they have recommended it more than I should myself; I think they have said, You are a Roman Catholic, and a man has asked you to vote who will vote against you; it will not be just and honest to vote for a man, who in Parliament will vote against you.

Do not you think an observation of that kind, proceeding from a Roman Catholic clergyman, would have all the effect of à command, with a vast proportion of the Catholic tenantry of Ireland? -Certainly not all the effect of a command; its influence would depend upon the sort of man the Catholic clergyman was, if he was a man devoted to the duties, it would have a great effect; where he was at all relaxed in his conduct it would not have the least. As to the Catholic clergy in Ireland, their influence is increasing very much, from causes, in my judgment creditable to them; they are educated at a much earlier period of life from being educated at Maynooth, and having early education, and we conceive the Irish people have a propensity to make good use of their opportunities of learning; they have become a much better class of men than they were formerly, they read a great deal.

In the existing state of things in Ireland, do you conceive, that most of advantage or injury follows from the interference of the Roman Catholic clergy in elections ?-My opinion is, that at present it is all advantage; I know they never interfere in doubtful or mixed cases, and that they interfere only where there is that decided hostility on the one part, and decided advantage to the Catholic interest on the other, to the interest of emancipation on the other; I think it is to that extent decidedly advantageous, because I cannot conceive any thing more degrading than an unfor tunate Catholic peasant brought to the poll, to contribute to the return to Parliament of a man who will vote against Catholic rights; I cannot conceive any thing more derogatory to human nature than that.

Was not it a matter of notoriety in Sligo, that both the candidates were as adverse to the Catholic claims as they could be?

It was considered not; it was considered, that the successful candidate would vote for them, and I think he will; that was as far as I heard the impression.

Do you conceive, that this influence of the Catholic priesthood in election matters would continue in its present state, if the question of emancipation were carried?-I am convinced it would be totally at an end, by carrying the question of emancipation; the causes which give it efficacy at this moment would thereby totally cease, and the effect would follow; there is not any thing like a blind submission of the Catholics to their clergy, not at all. Does your mind suggest any other cause which would survive the carrying the Catholic question, that could give to the Catholic

priesthood the power of influencing the electors?-No; I think it would be unwise in government, if emancipation were carried, (and until it was carried the Catholic clergy would not accept of a provision) to leave them unprovided; and I think it would be extremely wrong in the government, to give them any part of the revenue of the present church establishment, and that they would not accept of it; but I think a wise government would preserve the fidelity and attachment of the Catholic clergy, by what I call the golden link, by pecuniary provision, so that the government should be as secure, in all its movements towards Foreign powers, of the Catholic clergy, as they now are of the Protestant clergy; that they should be, in short, a portion of the subjects of the government and the state identified with them.

Is it your impression, that if the question of emancipation was carried, and there was an election to take place, in which a Protestant and a Catholic were candidates, the Catholic priest would not interfere?—I am quite sure he would not interfere, if he were a respectable man, and that if he did his influence would be lost; that it would be ascribed to political motives; that he would lose his character with his flock; that they would understand there was nothing further between the two sects in political controversy. The Catholic laity of Ireland are most decidedly adverse to any other establishment of their clergy, than that which they would wish the government itself should give them, by way of donation; because our wish would be, that the government should have proper influence over them, which a certain pecuniary connexion would give. Our wish would be, that the government should be strong by the combination of the subject. Our anxiety is, to become subjects out and out, as the Protestants are.

In the event of emancipation being carried, you do not conceive, that on the part of the Catholic clergy or laity, there would be an objection to receive stipendiary support from the state, provided the ecclesiastical subordination of the Catholic clergy was still kept up?-I am convinced there would not, if it was regulated with the heads of our church, so as not to create an independence over the bishops in the priesthood, an independence which certainly would be resisted by the bishops, and by the laity, as destructive to religion, and an independence which would be equally injurious to the state, by creating dissension, and differences, and heart-burnings, and one that could not well be realized. The mode of provisions should be regulated by the bishops; they should be the persons to come into contact with the government. There are not, in the world, a set of men more disposed to be perfect friends with the government than the Roman Catholic bishops.

Do you conceive it possible for any proposition for the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy to be acceptable, either to the

clergy or the laity, independently of the question of emancipation? Without emancipation, it will certainly be rejected. It would not be entertained for a moment, without emancipation. If a clergyman accepted of it, though the bishop may keep him in the parish, and though the people may, such of them particularly as were of a religious cast, attend and receive spiritual assistance from him in cases of necessity, he would lose their confidence altogether; he would be in a kind of civil excommunication, if I may use the expression, and certainly be totally useless, as holding any connexion between government and the people. It would be, in my opinion, an additional cause of irritation, to give the clergy a provision before the Catholics were emancipated.

Have you had communication upon this subject, with the clergy high in the Roman Catholic church of Ireland ?—I have spoken upon the subject with those gentlemen. There will, some of them, be in town to-day or to-morrow; without pledging myself at all for them, I understand that their sentiments coincide entirely with those I have the honour to express.

Have you had communication also with prelates, who are now no more?—I have.

Were their opinions, the opinion particularly of the late respectable Catholic bishop of Kerry, in coincidence with your own?-He was a cousin german of mine, a man of very clear and distinct intellect, a very well informed gentleman; his views were in entire coincidence with those I have expressed; he was anxious for that arrangement, and I am sure anxious for it, from the purest motives.

Your opinion is, that coupled with emancipation, that would be accepted by the Catholic clergy?-My opinion is, that coupled with or following emancipation, it would be acceptable, but not preceding it; and my humble opinion is, that it would be a most desirable thing, to have that species of settlement take place after emancipation.

. If emancipation were conceded, and this settlement made, what would be the probable effect on the influence of the Catholic clergy, in respect to the general administration of government, and in respect of the general tranquillity of the country?-The consequence, I take it, would be precisely this; that the Catholic clergy would become in the nature of officers belonging to the Crown, forwarding the views of government in every case where there was not something that revolted in general, such as harsh or unconstitutional illegal measures; but that the general tenor of their conduct would be decidedly in support of the government, and perhaps even in instances that theoretic friends of the consti

tution would not wish for; I believe the propensity of the Catholic clergy is very much towards an unqualified submission to the law, and to the government whatever it may be.

Would it in your opinion have any considerable influence in preserving tranquillity in the country?-I am sure it would; I have said, that some political measures are necessary, in my opinion lessening the dominion of landlords, making it obligatory upon them to select better tenants, and various measures of that kind; and with those political measures, I am decidedly of opinion there will be every prospect of order in every part of Ireland, if emancipation was honestly looked into.

What do you mean by its being obligatory upon him to select better tenants?-The statute law of Ireland gives a landlord most unlimited power over his tenants, to impoverish them totally, and then turn them out at once; if those laws were altered, and the landlords were left a good deal to common law, they would be obliged for their own sakes, to seek for persons of character and solvency, and not to hold an auction, as they do so frequently at present, allowing the highest bidder to take the land without reference to his character.

Do you conceive, that if an arrangement were made for giving stipends to the Roman Catholic clergy, and that connected with Catholic emancipation, it would do away much of the opposition of the Protestants of Ireland to the measure of Catholic emancipation? I should suppose that where the opposition is, as I presume it is in some instances conscientious, it would do so; but my own opinion is, that the great majority of the Irish Protestants, who are unconnected with local interests and electioneering purposes, and corporations, and influences of that description, are already favourable to emancipation; I know an immense number of the independent portion of the Protestants of Ireland are favourable to that measure.

What is the general amount of payment of the priests throughout Ireland?—I should suppose 150l. per year would be a high average for a parish priest himself, independent of his curate.

What is the amount of the salary of the curate?—A curate, if he resides with the clergyman, has 20. or 30l. a-year, with his horse kept for him; if he does not reside, he has one-third of the benefice of the parish; every Catholic clergyman in Ireland must have a horse, for he is liable to be called out every hour of the day or night; the average for the priest therefore, independent of his curate, I should think high for a clergyman.

You think 2001. a-year for a parish, would be a sufficient sum to cover the expenses of priest and curate ?-I should think so, certainly; 2004. for each parish.

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