Page images
PDF
EPUB

Do you mean that he took money for the information he gave you? He did.

Can you state any other information he gave you?-Yes, he gave me a detail of the making of an Orangeman at great length, the ascent to the hill of Bashan.

ques

Precisely, did he communicate to you the nature of the tions by which Orangemen may know each other?—Yes, the questions; at that time he gave me in writing a detail of.

Do you happen to recollect them?—No, I do not; but I have them.

Would you recollect them, if you heard them ?-Probably not in detail, but it is likely that to-morrow I might have them; but certainly I could get them by writing to Ireland.

Was one of the questions, "Where are you coming from ?”— I believe so.

"From the deep," was that the answer?—Yes.

"Where are you going to; to the hill of Bashan ?"-There was the hill of Bashan.

"Was it a high hill; a high hill even as the hill of Bashan ;' you recollect whether that was the nature of the lecture?I do not.

do

[ocr errors]

Was there any harm in the lecture, in any part of it ?—In the lecture itself none.

Did you hear of any other in which there was harm ?-I got from one person a lecture, and from another a lecture, resembling much that which was just said; and I read it at the Catholic Association, and it was put into the newspapers.

Your informant did not tell you that the words "the high hill, the hill of Bashan," and the password "Sinai,” were the only words in the whole of the 68th psalm, that form a part of the Orange system, did he ?-One informant confined himself to that, but did not say they were the only words; that informant, (for I am desirous to say every thing which I can, without a breach of faith,) I gave money to also; that person I believe to be a person of the name of Tobin, the person who gave me the information now referred to; and from the person whom I believe to be Tobin, there was nothing of the 68th psalm, but something so nearly resembling that which is now stated, that I have very little difficulty in considering it as identical.

Are you much in the habit of getting information you pay for?-It depends upon its nature; I would not pay for it, if I did not think it was worth the money that I gave for it.

How would such evidence be received in a court?-It is constantly received in court in criminal cases, and necessarily received; one would not have a single conviction in the south of Ireland of those horrible outrages, if the persons were not either

paid or expecting to be provided for; they could not return among their friends again, government must necessarily provide for them; but in my case, whether it was in a court of justice or not, I would not have the least hesitation in giving a large of money to have the Orange system explored; I would give five hundred guineas willingly.

sum

Have you ever published the offer?-Yes, I have made it known; and I have had many offers which I have rejected.

In making this information public respecting the Orangemen, which certainly reflects very much upon their character, do you not think it would have been as well if you had published the terms on which the information had been procured, as far as regards the Orange Association ?-Certainly, if it had lain in my way I would; I would not do any thing derogatory to any human being, without giving him perfectly fair notice at the time; I originally published that in the Catholic Association which has been mentioned; I also distinctly mentioned that I had given money for the information, and that I was to give more.

If Lord O'Neill were to protest, or any other respectable Orangeman in Ireland, denying the fact which has been asserted by you, that this ever was a part of the oath of an Orangeman, would you disbelieve his assertion ?-I would believe every thing that a gentleman in that rank of life asserted; I would believe that he would not assert positively that which was untrue; but this would remain on my mind, that the lower classes of Orangemen indulge in a system, and have tests and passwords, which the honourable member who has declared himself an Orangeman, (Mr. Brownlow) I am quite convinced would be incapable of acceding to; I would not think existence worth having, if I could believe a gentleman of rank and station could assert on his honour what was not strictly true.

Did you never hear of an Orangeman supporting the Roman Catholic clainis ?-I never did.

Did

hear of the circumstance of some Orangemen you never in the House of Commons, who supported the Catholic claims?— I never did.

Is it a popular opinion in Ireland, that all the members of the House of Commons who resist the Roman Catholic claims, are Orangemen ?-Oh, certainly not.

Not even a popular impression ?-Certainly not.

Is not Mr. Goulburn called an Orangeman in Ireland?-Yes. Is Mr. Leslie Foster called an Orangeman in Ireland?-No, I never heard that Mr. Leslie Foster was an Orangeman, nor do I believe that he is.

Is it your impression that Mr. Goulburn actually is an Orange

man?-It is my opinion certainly, that he is not at present; certainly not since the Act of Parliament.

Or that he ever was ?-I heard from a person of high credit, that Mr. Goulburn said in his presence, that he had taken the Orange oath.

Was that the same informant who has given you the rest of your information on other subjects ?-No, not at all.

Was he paid for that information?—Not at all; he was a person incapable of being paid for any thing.

You are persuaded that the information was not correct ?—If I had the honour of hearing Mr. Attorney-General say so, I would be most thoroughly persuaded of his veracity; or if it were denied by any body that was authorized to deny it, I should cease to believe Mr. Goulburn to be an Orangeman.

Have you ever heard that Mr. Dawson was an Orangeman ?No; I heard that Mr. Dawson was not an Orangeman.

[ocr errors]

Is not he reckoned as bad?-Oh no; he is reckoned bad enough, but not so bad as that. Mr. Dawson is a gentleman whom we expect, one day or other, to be voting for the Catholics. I am not without my hope of it.

What is your impression, as to the extent of the Population in Ireland? My impression upon the extent of the Population of Ireland is, that it must exceed Eight Millions.

[ocr errors]

On what do you found that impression?The parliamentary returns made it nearly seven millions. I am convinced that is extremely underrated in the county of Mayo. I have reason to believe, that during the distress of 1822, there were some lists made by two gentlemen, peculiarly accurate in taking down the names of the persons relieved there. There were jealousies amongst those that received the English money, and they were, therefore, cautious in taking down the names of persons relieved.

You mean the charity fund?—Yes; the "English money" is another name for the charity fund. I understand, that the number of persons relieved by name exceeded the Parliamentary return by something like eleven thousand; so that there appeared in that county, upon the number of persons relieved, eleven thousand more persons than the return gave in the entire county.

Have you sufficient data, assuming the number to be eight millions, for stating to the Committee what you conceive to be the actual number of Protestants and Roman Čatholics ?-Those things must be conjecture, to a certain extent. I have seen, for a number of years past, a manifest increase in the relative proportion of Catholic and Protestant; a very great increase of the Catholics, and a positive diminution, within my knowledge, of the number of Protestants in the southern district, and in Dublin.

The amount of the Protestant population, in the different pro

vinces, varies considerably, of course?—Yes; and the Catholic population is increasing in all. We were about, if we could, to enumerate the Catholics and Protestants throughout the country. If there had been perfect tranquillity, and no danger of the thing being abused, it would have been done by the Catholic Association; but in the southern counties, the relative proportion is

enormous.

Which do you conceive to be the most Roman Catholic county in Ireland? It is impossible to say that. Waterford is an extremely Roman Catholic county; Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Cork, is each a very Roman Catholic county; and there is a great deal still of resident Protestant wealth. Galway, Tipperary, are very Catholic counties.

Do you conceive the proportion of Roman Catholics to Protestants is the same, or nearly the same, in the counties you have enumerated?-It is nearly the same. In my own barony of Iveragh, in the county of Kerry, the return of the population, as I remember, was 14,680; there are about 72 Protestants; and there are no Protestants in the world, less apprehensive of Roman Catholics, or Papists, than they are. We live in perfect harmony.

Do you conceive that to be a fair specimen of the relative proportions of the county of Kerry ?—Yes, very nearly.

What should you conceive, in the county of Kerry, may be the proportions of Protestants to Catholics; do you think twenty to one?-They are fifty to one, and probably a hundred to one, in the whole county. There were many Protestants formerly there, whose families have become Roman Catholics. Before the elective franchise was extended to Roman Catholics, the Roman Catholics had Protestant freeholders about them. They brought in Germans called Pallatines, in the south. All the family descendants of those persons have become Roman Catholics, almost without exception.

If you were to be informed, on sufficient authority, that in some of the counties you have enumerated, the ratio of the Protestants to the Roman Catholics was five times greater than in others, would you believe it ?-Yes, I would. My arithmetical information on the subject is so loose, as that I could believe it from authority; for example, the proportion in Galway I take to be greater than Tipperary.

In which do you conceive it to be greater, in Kerry or in Clare? I am unable to answer as to the relative proportions. The proportion of Catholics I know to be very great in each; perhaps there are more Protestants in proportion in Clare.

What do you conceive to be the most Protestant county in Ireland?-I am unable to say that; for it would fix its station

in the north, which is the part of Ireland with which I am the least acquainted.

Were you ever in the county of Artrim ?-Never.

Were you ever in the county of Down?-I cannot exactly say; if I was, it was only passing to Monaghan.

Were you ever in the county of Derry ?-No.

Were you ever in the county of Armagh ?—Never.
Were you ever in the county of Fermanagh ?-Never.
Were you ever in the county of Donegal ?-Never.

Were you ever in the county of Tyrone ?-Yes; passing from Monaghan to Athlone.

Were you never more in Derry, than merely passing through it ?-No; I have never been in the north, except when going specially to Monaghan.

Are you able, in any other manner than this, to form an estimate of the proportions of Protestants and Roman Catholics, in the north of Ireland ?-From information merely; having a good deal of communication with members of the Catholic clergy, and with professional men from those counties, and with the individuals belonging to it who were members of the Catholic Association. The only information that I could give, would be derived from those sources, necessarily somewhat rude and indistinct; and reading the statistical account of the parishes published by Mr. Shaw Mason.

If it should be the fact, that the ratio of Protestants to Roman Catholics in some of the northern counties, is three-fold greater than it is in others, could you name those counties in which the ratio was the greatest ? I could not.

Can you offer any opinion whatever to the Committee, as to the actual number of Protestants in the province of Ulster ?I cannot.

Could you, in the province of Leinster ?—I could not.

Or of Connaught ?-No.

Which do you conceive to be the most Roman Catholic district, the province of Munster, or the province of Connaught ?I should think, pretty much on an equality. But in these things I am speaking loosely, as a person would do who had other occupations to attend to, and no precise arithmetical data, at the moment, to go upon.

Speaking loosely, what number of Protestants should you suppose there were in Ireland ?-From my notion of the population, I should think, that if there were an enumeration, the Protestants of Ireland will not be found to amount to any thing like a million, including Quakers and dissenters of every class.

What proportion of the number should you suppose belonged to the Church of England ?--I should conceive one half belonged

« PreviousContinue »