and oaths of obedience and secrecy: they have that feature in common. It is astonishing to what a degree of fidelity an Irish peasant obeys his oath of secrecy.

In speaking of the influence of the Orange association, in producing mischievous consequences in Ireland, do you think the Ribbon associations have been promoted by the Orange associations? The Ribbon associations owe their origin entirely to the Orange associations; and I even think, that if the Orange processions alone were suppressed, that would go very far to suppress Ribbonism; but the men excuse themselves thus, that they must be prepared for the next twelfth of July, or fourth of November, or Derry day, or whatever they call it, when the Orange procession is to take place.

Do you know at what time the Ribbon association began in the north of Ireland ?-No, I cannot say when it began. My own opinion is, that it is a continuation of the Defender system, which immediately ensued on the original formation of the Orange association in the north, and was connecting itself with the French Revolution, looking at a complete revolution in Ireland, and a separation from England. The Defender association was at first confined to the lower classes, but had the bad feature of being almost exclusively Catholic, as the Ribbon system is exclusively Catholic. Before the Defender system was put down, the Presbyterians joined a good deal among the Defenders, and thus combined, they mixed with the United Irishmen, when the events of the rebellion put down the Defenderism. Since that period, in proportion as the Orange irritation increased in the north of Ireland, has that of Ribbonism increased.

Do not you think the extension of the Ribbon system, within the last few years, has considerably tended to spread Orangeism? -Unquestionably they act on each other; the existence of Ribbonism makes it necessary for one perhaps to become an Orange man, and the existence of Orangeism has certainly created many Ribbon men.

Does not it appear that the outrages that have taken place, in the north of Ireland, have generally taken place in consequence of conflicts between the Ribbonmen and Orangemen ?-Ño; a great many of them, in my opinion, and I have looked at them pretty closely, have originated with the mere insolence of triumph of the Orangemen, speaking of the lower classes of them. In their lodges they work themselves up into a great hatred of popery; they go out; they are armed with muskets and ball cartridges; and, at the slightest sign of disrespect to them, they fire at the peasants.

Do you mean to say that they go out with arms to fairs, for instance, where men of both political feelings assemble, that one

party goes armed and the other is unarmed?-I have not the least doubt that if that were the subject of inquiry, it could be established, that the Orangemen go to fairs unarmed; certainly the Catholics, many of whom are Ribbonmen, go equally unarmed, but the Orangemen, in general, leave their arms in a depôt, about a mile or half-a-mile from the fair. In the evening particularly, a riot is easily excited, and the Ribbonmen are equally willing to commence it with the Orangemen; then the practice has been for the Orangemen to retreat upon their arms, and take their arms and shoot away, and many lives have been lost.

Will you mention any circumstances of that kind which has occurred? The names of the places are not familiar to me at this moment; but in the county of Monaghan, six or seven lives were lost, about eight years ago, in that way; but I have no hesitation at all in saying, that in the course of a week I can give many names of places where that occurred; the facts themselves. have come to us very distinctly.

You stated your recollection of a riot which took place at Maghera, where the Orangemen went into that town, with arms in their hands, to attack the Catholics?-No; my recollection, but I speak from loose recollection, is, that the Orangemen were unarmed when the riot commenced; my recollection is, that the Orangemen were the persons attacked originally; and then, after the riot commenced, my recollection from information is, that they supplied themselves with arms.

In that case had the Orangemen formed any depôt of arms in the neighbourhood?-So I understood.

With reference to the possible events of that evening?—Yes; and there were five or six Catholics shot.

Were there any Protestants shot?-No, not one; there could not be any shot, for there were no arms on the other side.

In the case of Maghera, did the Orangemen go back to their houses to get their arms, those houses being in the neighbourhood; or had they previously prepared their arms in the depôt, with reference to the possibility of their being obliged to use them?-I understand they had left them a quarter of a mile or half-a-mile from the town, and left them in a depôt; not in their houses certainly, for they could not have gone there. That was the representation made in public.

Was there any person of any note arraigned, for being accessary to this murder?There was a Mr. Kennedy, the son of a Presbyterian clergyman, arraigned for it; he was acquitted, and I believe honourably acquitted.

Do you know the position of the town of Maghera ?-Not at all; I have never been there.

One of the causes of the superior tranquillity of the north of Ireland, you state to be the residence of the gentry ?-So I have understood.

A great many of those gentry are Orangemen; are they not? -Some of them are, I dare

say.

Did you not state the majority of magistrates, in the north of Ireland, to be Orangemen ?-I do not know that I said the majority, from information perhaps I did; but I said many magistrates were, in the north. I would not say, if I did, on reflection, that I apprehended the majority of them were; but many, and many active magistrates were.

Is it not a matter of fact in Ireland, that at the time of the Defender system, to which you allude, the Orange Association lent much assistance to the government in the suppressing the rebellion? I do not think the Defenders made the rebellion; the Defenders were merely organized when the Orangemen were desolating the country. The Orangemen, described by Lord Gosford in his speech, turned six or seven hundred families out of the county of Armagh, by wrecking their property, and in many instances undermining their houses, and threatening them with Hell or Connaught, without any other cause whatsoever but their being Roman Catholics; to resist that persecution was the origin of the Defender system. The Defender system, as I understand, commenced as a re-action to that, as a protection from that kind of system.

At the time of the rebellion, in 1798, is it not a matter of notoriety in Ireland, denied by no man, that the Orange Association did lend material aid to the government, in defeating the conspiracy at that time?-My opinion is very much the reverse; my notion of the notoriety of the fact is, that calling it notoriety, is not an exact representation of the fact; the rebellion of 1798, commenced with the Presbyterians and Dissenters as United Irishmen; the upper classes of the Catholics had no kind of connexion whatever with it in the north; when the Dissenters, who had been united Irishmen, were defeated especially at Saintfield, and after the murder of Lord O'Neil by them, then they got protection by becoming Orangemen, and they joined most heartily in prosecuting and bringing to deserved punishment, in many instances, men who had joined them in rebellion; but I think the rebellion of 1798, was very much brought to explode, to use an expression employed by an Orangeman in the Irish parliament, by reason of the Orange lodges and the Orange system.

There were many Catholics among the United Irishmen, were there not?-Scarcely any among the leading United Irishmen ; the leading United Irishmen were almost all Presbyterians or

Dissenters; in the north the lower classes of United Irishmen were at first almost exclusively Dissenters; it spread then among the Roman Catholics, and as it spread into the southern counties, and of course, as it took in the population, it increased in its numbers of Roman Catholics; in the county of Wexford, where the greatest part of the rebellion raged, there were no United Irishmen previous to the rebellion, and there would have been no rebellion there if they had not been forced forward by the establishment of Orange lodges, and the whipping and torturing, and things of that kind.

There were many Roman Catholics in the ranks of the United Irishmen, were there not?-Yes; but it is a singular fact, that the number of Roman Catholic gentlemen, who were engaged in the rebellion of 1798, was extremely few.

At that period, the Defenders and Orangemen were openly engaged in the field?-The Defenders have become United Irishmen, and they joined the Dissenting United Irishmen; I have heard, that the Defenders were originally Roman Catholics, and the Dissenters came amongst them, and then Defenderism was merged in the United Irishmen, and of course, the Orangemen being at the side of the government in the rebellion, the Defender coalesced with the United Irishmen, and being United Irishmen, were of course against the Orangemen.

They became opposed to one another?-Yes, in open battle, than once, as I believe.

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Do you not think a great deal of the ill-will, which you describe as existing in the Roman Catholic peasantry, in the present day, towards the Orangemen, may have originated in something of that kind?—I do not think it can at all have so originated; an Irish peasant is not a speculative character; he has not leisure for much speculation; the practical and continued instance of insult and triumph over him, is much more likely to stimulate him than any thing of that kind; and I am sure they have totally forgotten the rebellion, and all interest in it.

You are acquainted with the oaths of Orangemen, are you not ? I have seen the printed oaths of Orangemen, and I had information, that the secret oaths were different; I have had that information from persons whom I have reason to confide in.

You have had such positive knowledge on the subject of the Orangeman's oaths, that you do not hesitate to describe publicly what they are, and what they are not ?--I do not know that I have described publicly the Orangeman's oaths; I do not believe I have; the Orangeman's passwords and signs, I have had from various sources. My first information was from a gentleman who is now dead, Captain O'Grady, of the Limeric Militia.

Was he an Orangeman ?-No, he was a Catholic; but he was

in the north in the militia, and that regiment joined with the king's troops in putting down the rebellion.

It was Captain O'Grady gave you your information ?-He was the first; he has been dead many years.

Have you had any other information on the subject ?—Yes, frequently.

From Orangemen ?-Yes, from Orangemen.

From such information as you could rely upon ?-From such information as I thought I could rely upon with great confidence, details given me upon the subject, and tracing out for example; the system has changed four or five times.

If you are reported correctly, you stated in a speech you made on Saturday, that you were ready to prove at the bar of the House of Commons, that one of the secret oaths of the Orangemen, was a verse taken from the 68th Psalm and the 23d verse, "that my foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same ?"-Not an oath at all; and the very terms of the verse shew that it could not be part of an oath.

Will you have the goodness to state, what part of the system it forms? A password it formed, as I understood, or something of that kind; it does not at present; it has been changed, as Ĭ understand.

Are you prepared to state, that it ever was part of the Orange system in Ireland?-It was a password; I am prepared to state, from my information; it would be impossible for me to be an Orangeman, and therefore I can speak only from information

Was your informant an Orangeman ?-Yes, my informant was a person, who was stated to me to be an Orangeman.

Your informant was stated to you to be an Orangeman ?—To have been an Orangeman.

The informant did not give that account of himself, did he?— I got in writing, from the informant upon that particular subject, the information; I refused to see him, because, circumstanced as I am in Ireland, I do not like to hold personal intercourse. Do you believe he was an Orangeman?--I do.

What was his name?-I should certainly wish not to mention that; I pledged my sacred word of honour, that I would not mention the name of a person who came to me on this subject; a most solemn pledge as a gentleman that I would not give his name. I gave money to my informer; I was also to give more money, after giving as solemn a pledge as a gentleman could, that I would not mention the name; but at the time I made the pledge, that he should come forward by summons in a court of justice, for I would not give any pledge that should exclude evidence from a court of justice.