and the enactment of the penal laws; it was one of the pledges that kept men together during that period, when the Catholics were thus excluded, and all the invasions upon their properties and rights committed.

The Committee may collect, that it has not been taken up as a recent invention, for the purpose of insult, but merely persevered in ?-Persevered in; and felt more, as the government and the law have become favourable to the Catholics: while the government was hostile to the Catholics, the individuals giving this toast were considered quite in accordance to the government, and not noticed; but when the law put the Catholics, to a certain extent, under the protection of government, and we became, to a certain degree, subjects, the Orange party, with their great and volunteer association going beyond the law, and threatening us beyond it, the toast had an effect which it had not before.

Do you believe that, in point of fact, the Catholics used to take offence at it, thirty or forty years ago ?-Yes, I am quite sure of that. I have known among Catholic gentlemen, and persons of an Orange cast, quarrels arising constantly; and their considering it a personal offence, and retaliating in an offensive manner on Protestants who pledged that toast in their presence.

Have you not heard, that about thirty or forty years ago, the Roman Catholic gentlemen used to join in drinking the toast? Yes, as "The glorious memory"; after the year 1782, there was a better spirit created in Ireland between the Catholic and Protestant; they almost forgot their dissensions: and at that period, if "the glorious memory" had been given in the presence of a Catholic, he would have joined in it; for, after all, the spirit of civil and religious liberty is as dear to us as to the Protestant.

Do you not believe, that the Roman Catholic population in Dublin used to turn out, and go round the statue of King William on his birth-day?—Yes; the Catholics at that period, fired over the statue of King William, and joined in it heartily.

You state that the corporation of Dublin were encouraged in illiberality, by a portion of the government?—I state that as my opinion; and it is very strongly my opinion.

Upon what facts do you form that opinion?-Knowing that there is a portion of the government of Ireland, what we call "liberal," and conceiving, and in the same manner knowing that there is a portion which we call "illiberal," and seeing that the men get promotion in the city of Dublin, who belong to the illiberal party, I think, to my mind, there is not so decisive a proof of encouragement as giving office and emolument.

Can you state the cases in which that has been done ?--It is not pleasant to name individuals, but I will name Alderman Darley for example; he is notoriously an extremely illiberal person, he

has lately been promoted, by getting an additional office, estimated at 7607. a year; Alderman Fleming was the rival candidate, but Alderman Darley was preferred by the illiberal and more powerful part of the Irish government; the contrast between the two is very striking to us, and yet Alderman Fleming's liberality was not so very decided, that it ought to have much injured his promotion.

Is that the only instance ?-No; but take them all round, I do not think you will find one of the liberal party in office; at least it does not strike my recollection, that there is one of the liberal party holding one of the offices government bestow. Alderman M'Kenny is totally excluded; Alderman Harty, who is liberal, is totally excluded; Alderman Smyth, I believe, has got no situation under government, and he is liberal; and I undertake, if the names are mentioned of those who hold the offices in the gift of the Irish government, they would all be found to be the fiery partisans of the Orange faction.

Can you state how many cases have occurred during Lord Wellesley's administration?-I cannot state how many, but all that occurred were of that description; it would, however, be unfair to attribute it to Lord Wellesley personally.

Can you conceive any reason, why Alderman Darley should be preferred to Alderman Fleming, beyond differences in their religious opinions?—I cannot; I am not in the state secrets; but I believe Alderman Fleming to be a very worthy man.

Have you any reason to believe, that for a great number of years back, Alderman Darley has ever attended any Orange lodge or society?-Attending Orange lodges is not to my mind a criterion; I suppose, since the passing of the Act of last year, he has not attended, but he is linked as much with the Orange party as possible. Have you any reason to think, that in any one instance, in the discharge of his duty as a magistrate, Alderman Darley has ever shown any favour or partiality to a Protestant, rather than a Catholic?-I am not sufficiently acquainted with the detail of his duty in his office, and besides, in his office, there is a barrister or two; I do not insinuate that it is so, but certainly I would rather be an Orangeman than a Catholic, if I was going into his office. That is your own opinion rather than a fact?-Alderman Darley was an Orangeman notoriously; some years ago, he was the person that immediately after the king left the room, when he was in Ireland, gave the offensive toast, insulting the king himself; the strongest instance imaginable in my judgment; so that it is not my opinion merely, but is founded on facts of a decisive and unequivocal nature.

Alderman Darley goes to the house of those who are not Orangemen, whereas he expects the Protestants to come to his own office?

-I think he had no right to come to me in this country; they do not arrest for constructive breaches of the peace.

Will you give your construction of an Orangeman?-Strictly speaking, an Orangeman is a person who has been sworn according to the ceremonies, which vary in the Orange lodges; there have been, as I understand, five or six variations in the signs and passwords of the Orangemen; they were of a worse character, as I understand, formerly; and they have become more mitigated in latter times. The Orange system is, to my judgment, something formed upon the freemasonry; there is a grand lodge in Dublin; there are lodges held in the country, and affiliated from the grand lodge. No man, strictly speaking, is an Orangeman, but a man, who, at one time or other, had the password and sign, and had taken the Orange oath, so that he could go into a lodge, as a freemason may go into their lodges; that is in strictness my opinion of an Orangeman. There are outlyers who do not belong to a lodge, and I never considered those persons, though we may familiarly so term them, as Orangemen

Strictly speaking, do you think Orangemen, according to your definition, exist to a great number in Ireland?-Yes; the numbers are so much exaggerated by the partisans, that I am not able to form a very decided opinion upon it; I should take it there are from twenty to twenty-five thousand men affiliated in the lodges in Ireland; I must, of course, speak from conjecture on that subject.

In applying the term Orangeman in all the discussions which unfortunately take place in Ireland, do gentlemen who take part in them confine themselves strictly to the persons who are members of that society, or do they apply the term to Protestants indiscriminately? Oh, never; there is nothing better marked amongst us than the distinction betwixt Protestant and Orangeman; for myself, some of my nearest relations, and most of my dearest friends, are Protestants; it is universal, down to the lowest peasants to discriminate between Protestants and Orangemen in the southern provinces.

Is there any intermediate class of Protestants which are neither what you would ca.. liberal, nor yet fall within the description and definition you have applied to Orangemen ?—Yes, there is; we make a distinction between Protestants and liberal Protestants, but we make a marked distinction between Orangemen and both those classes. A liberal Protestant in Ireland is an object of great affection and regard from the entire Catholic population; amongst ourselves we always talk of him as a protector and a friend; a Protestant, who is not an Orangeman, is spoken of as a stranger merely would be, but without feelings of hostility; the

Protestant who is an Orangeman, is considered as decidedly an enemy, and the extent of that enmity depends upon the peculiar education and habits of the individual who speaks of it; the peasantry speak of them as of Exterminators, I mean of a sworn or affiliated Orangeman.

Do you think that if there are twenty-five thousand Orangemen in Ireland, scattered all over the face of the country, as they are in different parts of it, it is possible for them to produce all that disturbance of which we have heard in various speeches, in and out of Parliament ?—I believe as far as my evidence here goes, I have not attributed the disturbances to the Orangemen solely or exclusively; on the contrary, the first day I was examined, I spoke of other causes. I do not know that it has ever been attributed to Orangemen alone; and my opinion is, not that the disturbance is created merely by their being Orangemen, nor if the number was doubled, would it be created by that.

Is not the word Orangemen frequently applied to persons, who though not members of an Orange lodge, are known by the violence of their principles to be fit to belong to it ?—Yes, it is.

Is it not applied to such Protestants as are adverse to the Catholic claims?-No; there are many Protestants who are adverse to the Catholic claims, and are not considered as Orangemen ; no man is considered an Orangeman, who has not shown some activity in his resistance, and who has not marked in some way himself a distinction, or been supposed to have marked it, between Catholic and Protestant, or at least, who is not at least accused of it.

Do you think there are many gentlemen belonging to Orange lodges, who fill the situation of magistrate in the north of Ireland? I speak of the north of Ireland from information, not of my own knowledge; I am therefore less competent to give accurate information, but according to the information I have, the impression made upon the Catholics, and those in particular who take an active part upon the subject, is, that there are a number of Orangemen in the magistracy of the north; but the great evil which is complained of, is the number of Orangemen that are in the armed yeomanry.

Do you know the amount of the armed yeomanry in Ireland? -I do not; the relative proportions of the north and south are very disproportionate; in the south the number of yeomen is small, the great proportion of the yeomanry are in the north..

Supposing there are but twenty-five thousand Orangemen in Ireland, can there be a great proportion of them in the yeomanry corps?-My opinion is, the greater proportion of Orangemen in Ireland are in the yeomanry corps.

Have you any facts by which you can justify that opinion?Only the information which we constantly receive from the north. In many instances the Catholics complain to us, or to me privately, and through the Catholic clergy. The information I thus receive, of acts of mal-administration of the law, and partiality, and of oppression of Catholics, and of favour shown to Orangemen; such are the sources of my information, and are my grounds for the opinions I express.

Do you consider the dissensions which unfortunately prevail between Orangemen and Roman Catholics, as in any considerable degree instrumental in having produced the disturbances in Ireland? Yes, if not produced, greatly aggravated, and tended much to continue them, particularly by reason of the notion that the government was connected with the Orange system, and by that means creating a recklessness in the minds of the peasantry, and exciting a perpetual and irremediable hostility, while the Orange system shall last; but the disturbances of Ireland lie much deeper. They are created by the peculiar state of the country, by poverty, the nature of tenure, tithes, church rates, and various other matters. The Orange system aggravates and perpetuates the evil.

Can your recollection assign any instance, in which it has ever become necessary to apply the Insurrection Act to any one of the northern countries ?-No.

Do not you think that rather affords a presumption, that the dissensions between the Protestants and Roman Catholics have not been, in any considerable degree, the cause of the inducing the necessity of applying that Act?-I do not think it does. There are more resident gentry in the north, and there is less disturbance where there are resident gentry. There is a constant application of armed force in the north. The Catholics in the north are, I believe, more organized into ribbon-men, and the ribbon-men do not, if I may so say, choose to fritter away their strength in those driftless acts of outrage, which the peasantry in the south do. With respect to the stability of the country, if a foreign enemy were to invade it, the north is in greater danger from its Catholic population than the south; they are better organized. We have a great deal more trouble to check ribbonism than to check whiteboyism in the south. By we, I mean the Catholic Association, and those who have taken an active part in Catholic politics.

You consider the insurrectionary movements which have taken place in the south as distinct from ribbonism?-Entirely; the only feature they have in common is, that the insurrectionary movements in the south were also coupled with secret association,