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of delay, and they have used an extreme deal of ingenuity to interpose delays; they have, under the appearance of fairness, instituted tribunals to try the right themselves, in the first instance; the real meaning of which is, a tribunal to exclude, in all possible cases, as many persons as possible.

Are you quite sure that the Adcocks and Hendersons were Catholics?-I am quite sure; I prepared their affidavits, and saw the Adcocks take the Catholic oaths.

Do you know any thing of the case of a Mr. Kirkland?—Yes; I know Mr. Kirkland very well.

He is a Protestant ?-He is a Protestant, but I do not know of what class; all Protestants are on an equality in Ireland as to civil rights.

He has applied to the corporation of Dublin for his freedom? -I understand he has applied, and I believe more than once, but he certainly has applied, and I understand he has been refused; he has given proofs of what we call liberality, and that is almost as bad as popery in the eyes of the corporation.

Do you know any thing of the foundation of his claim for admission?-No, I do not.

Do you think it impossible that the corporation of Limerick, in instituting the tribunal to try the right, had nothing else in view but to defeat it?—I have known a great deal of the corporation of Limerick, and I am quite convinced that they had nothing else in view; they have used every species of dexterity for years to avoid the trial of the right, and to leave the corporation and its property in the hands of an individual, who appoints the sheriff, and every thing of that kind. I was present when a gentleman declared, that his uncle had not nominated the two sheriffs, for it was he who had nominated them; that his uncle had given him, for two or three years, the nomination of mayor and sheriffs; this occurred in a court of justice.

On what occasion was that?-The name of the case was "Lord Kiltarton against Mr. George Pitt," a barrister; Pitt was sued as assignee of a covenant. The case was tried before my Lord Chief Baron; we, for the defendant, challenged the array of the jurors, on the ground that both sheriffs had been nominated by Lord Kiltarton, the plaintiff; and when the challenge was given in, the gentleman I allude to (I do not wish to mention his name), got up, and said in open court, "Do not persevere in that challenge, for, upon my honour, for the last two or three years, my uncle has given me the appointment of mayor and sheriffs, and all the members of the corporation; and it was I who nominated the present sheriffs, and not my Lord Kiltarton."

What was the year in which this happened?—I cannot mention the year, but I believe about 1811; it was at least as early as that.

Do you put the corporation of Dublin and the corporation of Limerick on precisely the same footing?-By no means. The corporation of Limerick has been the property of a single individual, its revenues and all; the corporation of Dublin certainly has not; it has belonged to a party, but not to an individual.

You do not think the cases are in any degree parallel?—It would be going too far to say they are not, in any degree, parallel; they are parallel to a certain extent; the lines extend the same way, but they are by no means co-extensive.

Have you ever known of any Catholic sitting upon the commission grand juries in Dublin?—I have heard of Catholics, I think, sitting upon the commission grand jury; that has been a disputed question; but my own recollection is, that on the commission grand juries they have, but on the term grand juries, in the city of Dublin, never; though for thirty-three years they have certainly been eligible to that situation.

Do you suppose the reason of that to be, that in the term grand juries they have the power of raising money on the citizens by presentment, and not on the commission grand juries ?—I do not think Catholics would have been on the commission grand juries, if they had any power of raising money, or the general power of appointing to various offices; the term grand jury in Dublin has a great deal of patronage, as well as the power of taxation to a great extent; it is, in my humble judgment, very badly constituted; there are men of very small property upon it constantly, while Catholics of great wealth, who are taxed by those men, are never on such grand jury.

Do you find that that exclusion extends as much to the rich Protestant merchant, as to the Catholic merchant'?-There are rich Protestant merchants excluded certainly; but if a rich Protestant merchant thought it wise to meddle in corporation politics, he might be easily upon it, unless he was a gentleman who took what we call the liberal side; but any Protestant merchant, who chose to meddle in corporation politics, of wealth, would easily be upon those grand juries. The members of that grand jury are principally supported by offices under the police aldermen and sheriff's peers, and so on.

Do not those grand jurors principally consist of the corporate offices ?-Yes.

Is it not within your knowledge, that the greatest proportion of the wealth of Dublin is excluded from those corporate offices; Practically I think it is, for the corporation is in general `constituted of men not wealthy, or not commercial men; but that is because they are excluded by reason that several of the wealthy Protestants do not think it worth their while, and not having an adequate object to become corporators; those poorer persons make

money of it, and have patronage which is equal to money; they therefore devote themselves to the measures which bring them forward in the corporation.

Do you think that because a man in Dublin is a Catholic, whatever his wealth and respectability may be, he is more excluded from sitting on those grand juries, which have the power of raising vast sums of money, than a Protestant ?-O, certainly, much more; for example, the law as it stands at present precludes him from any office in the corporation: a Catholic at present cannot be mayor, or sheriff, or alderman, or common council-man; he cannot be master or warden of any of the guilds; he can hold no situation in the corporation but that of mere freeman; and as the grand jurors are constituted almost entirely of corporation official men, therefore they are infinitely less likely to be on the grand jury than Protestants of any class.

Does there not exist as much dissatisfaction among the wealthy Protestant community, at being excluded from those grand juries, as exists among the Catholics?—I do not think the degree is as great; there does exist dissatisfaction certainly. I believe the wealthy Protestant merchants concur with the Catholics in being dissatisfied with the present system, and are much dissatisfied with it; but this dissatisfaction is imbittered to the Catholic by religious dissension, to a degree which increases the unpleasantness of the feeling a great deal.

Is it your opinion, that there is no remedy for those inconveniences that arise out of the corporation system of government, except by a total change in the charter of incorporation? I do not think a total change at all necessary; I think by a fair and liberal spirit actuating the government, and particularly the not giving promotion in the various offices in the patronage of government, to violent partisans of any kind, much may be done to bring the corporation of Dublin to be practically useful; but I think, as the offices are given only to those who distinguish themselves in a particular way, it is a stimulus to that course.

Can the government prevent the corporation distributing the offices in their gift, as they like?—The government of Ireland, I take it, have complete control over the corporation of Dublin; for there are so many offices in the gift of government, removeable at pleasure, to be given to Dublin corporators, particularly those connected with the police, that if the government chose to point out that they should shape their course in a different way, the thing would be done in half an hour, as I conceive; I mean, very speedily.

Do not you think, that some events have happened lately, which prove that the government have not that complete control over the corporation?-I think not; the Irish government is divided; there is a certain portion of it with which the corporation acts, and

whose power enables the corporation to act against another portion of it,

You have stated, that Protestants are excluded as well as Catholics from serving on the different grand juries, as being what you call liberals; you mean by that, those that are considered generally favourable to the Catholic claims ?—I do.

Do you conceive that, under the present system, that prejudice exists against the admission of Protestants into any offices, who do not maintain opinions favourable to the Catholic claims?-Oh, yes; so much so, that it would be utterly impossible for any man who entertained an opinion favourable to the Catholics, to become a sheriff of Dublin, utterly impossible; on the contrary, no man can now be sheriff of Dublin, who does not give an unequivocal pledge of his hostility to the Catholics.

Does that extend to all offices, to that of Lord Mayor ?-No; the Lord Mayor is generally taken in a certain rotation. There are some aldermen, liberal; Alderman M'Kenny is a liberal man, and Alderman Smyth, the late Lord Mayor, also.

Are the majority of the aldermen supposed to be liberal ?—The majority of the aldermen are supposed to be liberal, or at least disposed to liberality.

Explain how you account for the circumstance, as no person can be alderman who has not served the office of Sheriff, of its being necessary to give that pledge, before men are elected Sheriffs ? The pledge has been of a later date. There was a time when a better feeling existed in the corporation of Dublin; and the revolutionary principle, which had a bad effect elsewhere, made a kind of community of feelings among the Irish, in many instances; and there were a class of men who grew up and got into wealth, being corporators, who, without going to the extent of revolution, had liberal political notions generally, and some of that party have got into the court of aldermen; they are most worthy and excellent men. What is the pledge of hostility which a high Sheriff of Dublin is obliged to give, before he can fill that situation?-He is obliged to give a pledge of toasting at all public dinners, that which is considered, and intended, as an insult to the Catholic population, "The glorious and immortal memory."

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Do you consider drinking that toast, a pledge of hostility against the Roman Catholic population of Ireland?-It certainly is in Dublin, and generally, in Ireland it is considered so, and, as far as I have ever heard, intended as such; I never knew any man give it in public, that did not mean it so.

"The glorious memory," is, the health of King William ?— "The glorious memory," is not the health of King William alone, for it is current in Ireland with the brass money and wooden shoes, popery and slavery, and a great deal more.

What is the date of that pledge?-I cannot exactly say. In the south it would not be done at all.

Do not Roman Catholics frequently drink the health of King William ?—I have known Catholics give the health of King William, as I should give it myself, as an assertor of the principles of civil and religious liberty.

Do you think it is ever drunk with that feeling by the high Sheriff of Dublin?-Never; on the contrary, the high Sheriff of Dublin drinks it with a view to put down civil and religious liberty.

Can you say what is the sense in which a man drinks a toast? Yes; from the general tenour of a man's conduct, and the preceding discourse; and many of those gentlemen to whom I impute that, would be greatly astonished, if I formed any other notion of it.

On what occasion does the Sheriff give that pledge ?—There is, generally, a meeting at Morrison's, previously to an election of sheriffs, of the gentlemen who influence the elections in the common council: they arrive about the hour of eleven o'clock, and they canvass who shall be sheriff; and no man has any chance, at present, of succeeding, unless he gives the pledge; and when the corporation meet, it is announced openly, that he has pledged himself to give that toast.

Has not" The glorious memory" been drunk by the corporation of Dublin for many years; is it not a sort of charter toast? I do not think it has the impression upon my mind is this, for some time after I was called to the bar, I do not think it used to be drunk; and, certainly, it was given up for some time.

Do you believe that the corporation of Dublin, or any other gentlemen, could really intend to give that toast as an offence to the Catholics; or is it not more likely, that the Catholies have taken this as an offence to themselves ?-Oh, no: certainly they mean it as a sign of superiority and triumph, and that they determine not to allow the civil equalization of things that we are seeking for; it is a kind of Shibboleth of party, denoting foregone triumph, and bespeaking future degradation to us.

Are those feelings expressed in the toast, as announced ?—In general they are; and, as appears by the newspaper reports, in the most offensive shape. We know of them, of course, only from the newspapers; they are generally accompanied by very violent declarations of hostility to the Catholic claims.

What do you conceive to be the date of the Orange Association?-About the year 1795 is the date of the Orange Association. Have you any doubt that that toast has existed, and been the usage, ever since the reign of King William ?-I am sure that particular toast has existed ever since the Revolution; that is the reason that quite convinces me of its offensive nature, for it was a kind of charter toast after the violation of the treaty of Limerick,

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