into satisfaction, and engaged the Catholics in the service of the State, by adequate honours and rewards. This would attract all the hopes and desires of the Catholics to the State, and would counteract any bias they might have against the Church, which is connected with the State by an indissoluble union, and must therefore stand or fall with it.

Do you think that raising the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise, if it was accompanied with the settlement of the great question you allude to, would be very unpopular amongst the body of Roman Catholics ?-My opinion is that it would not; it is possible that against that, as against any thing else, a cry for a moment could be raised, but I do not think that any permanent feeling of discontent would be produced by it.

Have you in your observations as to the state of the country in Ireland, from what you have yourself seen and learned in communication with others, had any reason to think that the want of a respectable yeomanry is amongt the evils that that country labours under ?—I think it is one main cause of the evils that the country labours under; and my notion in recommending a change in the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise, is materially influenced by the hope, that it would induce gentlemen who wish to have political influence in Ireland, instead of parcelling out their land amongst a mob of wretched cottiers, to raise up and encourage the growth of a respectable yeomanry in the country.

Are you of opinion that any mischief which might grow from any diminution of the authority of the landlord, that might arise from the improved description of tenantry and the independence of the tenantry that would be produced by such a measure, would be completely counterbalanced by the benefit that would arise from the establishment of such an independent body in the country?—I think it would, because the power which would exist would be a power to be exercised by persons having something of a stake in the country, which the mere forty-shilling freeholders have not.

Are you of opinion that it would take them from their subjection to the interference of the clergy, and in the next place, give them, as owners of property in the country, an independent personal interest?-My notion is, that if the Catholic question were settled, and the freehold qualification raised, the Roman Catholic clergy would no longer be tempted to exercise political power at elections; or if they were disposed to do so, that they would not have a body upon which they could act as at present, and that it would induce those gen

tlemen who wish to have political power through freeholders, to create freeholders of a respectable class, who would be the means of preserving order in the country.

Do you think that such an arrangement would be injurious to those fair interests which the Roman Catholics are entitled to have in the country?-My notion is, that the Roman Catholics ought not to have an interest according to their number, but according to their property; under that impression I think that it would not injure any power or influence which they ought fairly to have in the State; coupled, however, with measures which would place them in what I conceive to be the situation and estimation in which their property ought to place them.

From the nature of your view of the state of Ireland, particularly of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, if this Roman Catholic measure were conceded, and were accompanied by a respectable provision for their clergy, and by this measure that has just been mentioned of raising the qualification of freeholders; and if the laws in that amended state were fairly and justly applied, so as to give the Roman Catholics a reasonable share of political power and influence in proportion to their property and their claims, do you believe that we should have a reasonable prospect of peace and tranquillity being restored to that country?—I certainly think we should, and for this reason; I do not conceive there is any political curse upon Ireland that is to prevent Ireland from being as happy and peaceable as other countries, if instead of attempting to fit the people to the Constitution, the Constitution be fitted to the people.

What effect would such a state of things described in the last question, have upon the connexion between Ireland and Great Britain ?-If I did not think that it would have the effect of confirming that connexion, and rendering it, I hope, eternal, I would myself, though a Roman Catholic, be against it; because I do think that the Roman Catholics, in their present state of connexion with England, are much happier and much better off than they could ever be separated from England, although they should become the ascendant body, in all respects, in Ireland; they derive advantages from their connexion with England, which Ireland could never afford them in a separate state.

If a provision were made for the Roman Catholic clergy by the State, is it your opinion, that the influence of the priesthood over their flocks would be thereby materially diminished?-I do not think any wholesome influence that the priest has over his flock would be diminished.

K

Have the Catholic clergy at present any other provision than that which they derive from the voluntary payments of their flocks?—None.

The fee upon marriage is one of their principal resources? -It is.

It is usually that for which the highest price is paid?—I understand so.

In your opinion, has that circumstance any influence in producing early and improvident marriages? There one must speak again with reference to the nature of man; if the priest gains by early marriages, there is nothing more likely to encourage them.

Is it not the opinion that such is the effect of it?—I have heard it stated; I have heard the priests assert the contrary.

Are you acquainted with the manner in which freehold votes are very generally made throughout Ireland now; namely, that the freeholds are granted by the landlord, and that the freehold leases are, in point of fact, retained always in the possession of the landlord, and produced only at the time when there is a registry, or when there may be occasion to produce them?-I was not aware of the fact.

You have no reason to believe that that practice has ever prevailed?—I am not aware of it; it may prevail, without my knowing any thing about it.

Does your experience enable you to say, whether it has been the usage for the Catholic freeholders generally to vote at elections according to the wish of their Protestant landlord? -Formerly, I believe it used; latterly, religious feelings, I am told, frequently carry the tenant away from the landlord, particularly through the activity of the clergy, who are stimulated by the increasing eagerness of the laity for emancipation.

Do you believe that, in consequence of the diffusion of knowledge amongst the lower orders of Catholics, the exercise of a free independent opinion is more likely to prevail, than upon former occasions ?-I think there is, every day, more knowledge and more property spreading through the Catholics, and of course, in proportion as it does so, a more independent feeling will arise among them, and a keener sense of the political inferiority in which they at present stand; but with respect to that description of tenantry which has been induced to vote against their landlords, I should not be inclined to think that it was very much from a feeling of independence of the landlord; I should rather attribute it to a disposition to oppose those whom they consider hostile to

their religion, a disposition which the clergy, of course, have the best means of exciting and calling into play.

Is it your opinion, that the existence of the laws, as they now affect the Roman Catholics of Ireland, has a tendency to produce a peculiar degree of union amongst that class as Roman Catholics ?-I have no doubt of it; they are bound together by the common sense of a common grievance.

Do you not conceive, in consequence of the existence of that union, if it should be acted upon at elections generally, and more especially in counties, the result of it must be, to give a decisive influence to the Catholic body, as things now stand in the counties?—I think it would give to the Catholic body a degree of influence beyond what the just weight of their property would otherwise entitle them to; it enables active Catholics, clergy and laity, to alienate the lower orders from their landlords, and through their numbers to carry all before them, driving Protestant property, when opposed to them, utterly out of the field.

Is it your opinion, then, that the influence of religion, and the priest, would be stronger than the influence of the Protestant landlord ?-Speaking from facts, I should say, yes. I have heard of acts of interference at the Dublin election, the Leitrim election, and the Sligo election, and other places.

Have you, in your knowledge, ever met with any objection being taken to the purchase of land, on account of the title being derived from forfeiture?-Never.

Have you known of much property being invested by Roman Catholics in the purchase of landed estates in Ireland? --I left my native county, the county of Galway, about twenty years ago; I returned to it in the last year; I found there a new race of landed proprietors, principally Roman Catholics; the Roman Catholics are persons very much engaged in com. merce; they have also, within the last thirty years, entered very much into professions. They make money in commerce and professions, that money settles into land, and thus the landed interest of the Roman Catholics is increasing to a great extent.

Do you know whether any of the landed estates so purchased, were lands that had been forfeited, and the owners of which, who have sold to Catholics had become possessed of them, in consequence of the forfeiture of the original proprietor ?-A great deal of it must, when it is considered to what extent forfeitures took place in Ireland; I should say of my own family, we forfeited; we lost considerable property; we have since purchased other property, which we will not give up in a vain pursuit of the old.

Is the Catholic landed interest very much interested in the present settlement of property in Ireland?-To the extent of the interest which the Catholics have in the land, they are of course equally interested in preserving property, with the Protestants.

Besides purchases of estates, has not a great deal of Catholic money been lent on mortgages ?—A great deal; persons of that description in Ireland, as well as in England, are now seeking for good mortgages.

Are not the Catholic tenantry very much interested in the existing leases?-In proportion to the interest which they have under their leases.

When you speak of raising the qualification of electors, do you, in your idea, limit it only to freehold leases; or would you say, that in a county, the qualification of a man having the fee of his forty-shillings freehold, should be raised also ?— I confine myself entirely to persons who derive under leases; if a man had the ownership of property, I should say he ought to be permitted to vote, because he is the proprietor, the leaseholder is not; and I take that to be one of the great distinctions between the forty-shilling freeholders in England and in Ireland; in England, a forty-shilling freeholder in general has a property of his own to that extent; in Ireland, it is quite the contrary.

Supposing a lessor pays to his landlord a rent of five pounds a-year, he ought to be able to get out of that property, a rent of seven pounds a-year, in order to give him a forty- hilling interest in it?-Certainly..

Do you believe that that is generally the case with respect to the lower class of freeholders ?-I believe quite the contrary. In general they pay what is originally a rack rent for the land, they then build mud huts upon it, and if they make out of the land a profit of forty shillings a-year, a profit produced by the sweat of their brow, they reconcile to themselves to swear that they have an interest in it to the extent of forty shillings a-year, whereas the gain is produced not through an interest in the land, but through their labour.

So that in point of fact, when their interest comes to be examined by this test, it is not an interest bonâ fide of forty shillings a-year?-Quite the contrary; I referred in a former part of my evidence, to cases that were before me, upon receivers' accounts in Ireland; I found frequently, that a great mass of tenants, who were in arrear in consequence of holding at exorbitant rents, had sworn to forty-shilling freeholds.

Have you ever considered what amount of qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise would suit the present