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dow heaped upon them by their adversaries. | the state in matters of religion was danger

The bishop of Ossory was surprised to ous and impolitic: whether he intended to hear the authority of Locke quoted by the impute any improper interposition to the learned prelate in support of the opinion late lord-lieutenant of Ireland was not he had delivered on ihis question. If he quite clear; but he (the bishop of Ossory) had any distinct recollection of the sen could bear the testimony to the contrary; timents of Mr. Locke on this subject, it was and however he might differ in political this—that that great writer had laid it sentiment from two of them, he felt called down as a principle, that Roman catholics upon to declare, that in this respect their ought to be excluded from political power. conduct was above reproach. He contend, The noble earl who moved the question un ed, that so far from foreign influence being der consideration had spoken with some de denied or abolished, it had been recently gree of acrimony of the conduct of orange recognized and referred to in a letter signed societies in Ireland; and had described the by six titular bishops of Ireland, a passage pastoral letters of the reverend prelates of from which he read to the house. If the the Roman catholic churchi, as uniforinly catholics once refused to be actuated by filled with recommendations of loyalty and, foreign influence, they ceased to be Roman, peace. He was coofident, however, that although they inight still be Irish cathothat character could not be attributed to lics. In truth, they were often both the one pastoral letter of the Romish archbish one and the other, as suited the political op of Dublin, and also one of Dr. Lanigan purpose immediately in view. The right who was titular bishop either of Ossory or reverend prelate referred to the proceed. of Waterford. He had heard the other ings at Rome during the pendency of the night a sentiment expressed by a noble earl bill of 1813; and particularly to the opie pow present, which accorded better with nions of the authorities there, on the subhis ideas of loyalty.' Thal noble earl (lord ject of the oath prescribed in it; arguing, Grey,) in one of the most learned and elo- that it was impossible to suppose that the quent' legal arguments that ever was de. sovereign pontiff would concede what was livered in any assembly, had observed, that required regarding the veto, It had ever when a law is enacted, he considered it his | been avowed by the Irish catholics themduty to obey it as long as it existed; how - selves, that, without the crime of schism, ever bad he might conceive it to be. This | they could not comply with'the terms re, was loyal and constitutional doctrine; but quired by abandoping their allegiance to how different was the tendency of that the pope. He contrasted these tenets with contained in the pastoral letter of the Ro- others previously and subsequently exman çatholic bishop of Dublin? It was pressed ; aod gave it as his opinion, that said, that the 'present disposition of the | with a body so vacillating it was impossible catbolics was to do their utmost to concilio to treat with any hope of a beneficial reate, and a' most wonderful discovery they sult. He noticed the proceedings of the had made by which it was to be accoin- catholic clergy of the arch-diocese of Dub. plished-domestic nomination : a great lin, at a meeting on the letter of Quaran. blessing certainly it might be; but, in torti, aod insisted that tbe true reason why truth, it was only what the protestants had the catholics refused the last, and would long enjoyed. Without putting any unfair reject any new measure, would be because or forced construction upon the actions or it might put an end to their machinations writings of any inan, he should take the against the church of England. He folJiberty of reading several extracts from the lowed up his remarks by reading a para. works of Roman catholics theinselves, to graph from what he termed tño catholic prove that, supposing their present tenets official paper of Dublin, 'Ņoblé lords to be ever so favourable to concession might Hatter themselves with the hope of (which he by no means admitted), it was satisfying the unreasonable demands of the impossible to argue upon them, or to treat Roman catholics of Ireland, but they would them as opinions they would long retain; be deceived ; and as one of the protestant for the quotations he should proceed to bishops of that island, he felt called upon inake would convince the house that they to assert, that the fuundations of the estabhad no fixed principles, and that what they | lishments would be shaken if once a door said to-day they would unsay tomorrow. were opened to its enemies. The terms of This may appear a bold assertion, but he the oath proposed in the bill of 1813, were was prepared to prove it. The right reve- certainly strong; but how was it possible rend prelate then proceeded to read soine for a man who was a true Roman catholic extracts from a work, the title of which to take it? The clergy had positively was not audible below the bar; it was un déclared against it; and he brought forderstood that they referred to the proceed.

ward a passage from a pamphlet, written ings of ibe council of Trent. The noble by a'right honourable person, for whom earl had contended that any interference of he entertained the highest respect, to sbory

that all oaths so taken would be consider | received, he insisted that that great writer ed null and void. He begged to trouble laid it down as a principle, that no man the house with a few remarks upon the ought to suffer for not being a member of present head of the catholic church. In the established church, unless it could be the first place, it could not be forgotten proved that he maintained opinions injurithat the present pope was the man who ous to the state. He entered into the same hastened to Paris for the purpose of plac- | writer's reasoning upon the subject, to show ing the crown of France upon the head of that he even carried it farther than was Buonaparte; and in the next place, that to generally supposed. . him Europe was indebted for the resusci- The earl of HARROWBY was of opinion, tation of the order of Jesus. Some that in the debate of that evening both persons might fairly entertain bigh respect sides of the house had argued the question for the learning, the zeal, and the talents) on grounds that were intenable. Advertof that society; but how happened it that ing to the speech of a right reverend prelate they were abolished by the unanimous who had supported the inotion, and for voice of Europe, unless they were whose amiable and excellent qualities he noxious to all classes, and unfit to be had the highest respect, he observed, that revived ? Noble lords would also, he if any thing could have induced him (the hoped, remember, that since the house earl of Harrowby) to give a different vote of Brunswick had been seated on these from that which it was his intention to give, realms, each sovereign, in succession, it was the concluding part of that right on assuming the crown, had professed his reverend prelate's speech, in which he had solemn resolution to maintain the estab- unadvisedly (if it were permitted to sup. Jishment in church and state. George the pose that any thing unadvised could pro. First and Second had so promised, and so ceed from such a quarter) thrown down a performed; and the present king had been torch of discord; and had (unintentionally, no less zealous and successful in his endea- every one must be persuaded) encouraged vours to preserve the protestant church of those who wished to find an excuse for seEngland inviolable. To establish these dition and rebellion. With respect to the statements the right reverend prelate read right reverend prelate, who with so much parts of the speeches delivered by each of ability had followed the noble mover of the the sovereigns named, to their first parlia- | proposition under their lordships' considera ment. He was far from disputing theation, he (the earl of Harrowby) was hapgreat power of parliament; no doubt it py to find that he disclaimed the opinion could enforce the laws it thought fit to that difference of religious belief was a pass; but was the house quite sure that the sufficient ground for the exclusion of the bill which would emanate from the com- catholics from a participation in the civil mittee now proposed to beappointed would privileges of their fellow-subjects. That not require the employment of some coin- right reverend prelate rested his opposition • pulsion? Where noble lords quite certain to the catholic claims on the want of civil that it would be received with gratitude, qualities and civil worth on the part of caand that its purpose would not be entirely tholics. He had argued that the loyalty of defeated by those who asked every thing, | the church of England-man was more to be and would concede nothing? In all coun: depended on, because it was undivided.

ries the catholic religion, and its profes- | Ile (the earl of Harrowby) had no hesita sors, were the same, as was proved by a tion in allowing that the allegiance of those curious production, signed by the archbi- who acknowledged it, with reference both shop of Malines, and all the suffragan bio to church and to state, must be more conshops, with the exception of only two, plete in its nature than the allegiance of which was thrust under the doors of all those who acknowledged it only to state. catholic shop-keepers and others, and The chain, however, which bound subjects which had been distributed with the greates to a goveroment, was composed of a variety est industry; maintaining that a good Ro- of links. It was certainly impossible, man catholic could not take the path of where one of those links was wanting, that allegiance to a protestant king. Many | the chain could be quite as strong as where copies of this document had been dispers- | no such deficiency existed. It was yoed in various parts of Ireland; but he had doubtedly easy for one 30 accustomed to been unable to procure a specimen of it for all the dexterities of logic as the right revethe information of the house, in couse rend prelate to prove that it was utterly quence of the pains taken to conceal it. impossible a Roman catholic could be faith

The bishop of NORWICH, in a low | ful in his allegiance to the governmentof any voice, explained; he would yield to no country whatever. But what was the fact? man in his recollection of the part of Mr.! Let their lordships refer to former periods. Locke's works to which he had referred; and Let them revert to the times of queen Eli. Rotwithstanding the contradiction he had zabeth, of Charles the First, and they would

find that no persons adhered with greater | tended to injure the one, must infallibly da fidelity to their allegiance to the crown so to the other, and if the one perished, the than the Roinan catholic clergy; who, at other also must. No man, he trusted, those periods, were totally unrestricted would ever live to see this the case in our with respect to the enjoyment of civil pri happy country ; but with respect to the vileges; and were treated with equality catholics being returned to serve in parliaand indulgence. Subsequently they expe. ment, he thought there was infinite more rienced much harder usage; for at the re hazard in a protestant being returned by volution a system of legislation was adopted catholic electors than in a catholic being with respect to the catholics, of which he chosen at once, and at all events still a was persuaded that there was no goble lord majority of parliament would be secured. present, wbo would not say that as an But why should they be excluded from the Englishınan he was ashamed. Repeatedly army, and from reaping those honours due had it been proved that notwithstanding to their inartial achievements. They their spiritual allegiance to the pope, the were allowed to attain the rank of lieutecatholics had maintained their temporal nant generals, but debarred from that of allegiance to the king. In spite of this generals. Why, good God, was this the foreign allegiance, they had been still de case? Was this then their reward for nominated loyal and faithful subjects. The fighting our battles, and, returning from right reverend prelate had argued, that the field covered with blood and wounds, their principles were to be judged from the yet with true British glory! All persoos decrees of ancient councils, and yet he had

admitted these individuals to be great and also inaintained that they were so varying valuable warriors, and yet they were dethat no dependence could be placed on

barred from public honours, and unnecessathem. How these two charges could pos. rily stiginatised! If they were brave (and sibly be reconciled, he confessed he was at

who could or would deny that they were a loss to know, for if they were so unsta so ?) then why should they not be rewardble, so changeable as said to be, it was ed as such ? With respect to the bar, lo impossible their conduct could be judged of would say also, that in this point there by ancient councils. The catholic religion was an invidious and unnecessary distiuchad been branded as intolerant in its very tion kept up, and by the present system,

tion kept up, and by the present sy nature and constitution, but for example he their lordships were in fact telling the ca. would ask, would their lordships think it tholic, though possessed, as some inight be fair to consider the church of Scotland as of the most brilliant talents and splendid acintolerant, merely because at the time of quirements --" Thus farshall ye go and no the union, they had published a declaration farther ” It was absurd to suppose that the expressive of their determination to pre

very idea of a man being a catholic disquavent episcopacy being introduced into that lified him for being a fit person to execute country? Upon the very same principle the British laws, or preside over a Britisa might the church of Rome be accused.-1 jury. Where, in the name of God, he Every person who had argued the question, would ask, where did the most distant conhad agreed, that it was necessary every nection exist between the religion a inan measure should be taken that could possi professed and the line of life he followed ! bly be done for conciliating the affection Would any man, or could any man in fact and soothing the ininds of the Irish nation; gravely say there existed the slightest relaand that such an object was of the greatest tion between theology and the dispensation importance was obvious indeed. The of the law. It was insulting to the good greatest danger was apprehended to be sense of the country to hear this said, espefroin foreign allegiance, and here, though cially when their lordships considered that be differed most materially in his conclu a judge, if disposed to act in this manner, sions from the right reverend prelate who was subject to the censure of an eolightened spoke last, he nevertheless had proved that bar, and an equally enlightened public. they ceased to be Roman catholics the mo It was also further known, that appeals ment they ceased to acknowledge a foreign laying from the bench to a higher tribunal, head. It had been argued by some that I had thus obviated every danger, or ap)the moment the catholics were permitted pearances of danger. You keep them to enter both houses of parliament, or inco back enough to make them dangerous, .by the army, navy, and law, that all these de refusing that which would make thein partments would of course become catho loyal, and nothing, therefore, could be lic. He was totally ignorant of the slight obviously more impolitic. The question est possibility of this ever being the case, will undoubtedly often recur, and come and where the danger existed of their | every tine that it does come, with addi. doing any harm to the church, he could not tional energy to parliament, unless decided see. Thank God, church and state were now. Was it then fit, was it proper, was so intimately connected, that whatever it necessary, that year after year, their

lordships should allow the attention of par. I real ground of the question. If the motion Jiament or the country to be occupied with contemplated nothing but some farther ise the question ? If it was not proper, thendulgences, or as complete a toleration as why not at once consent to the consi- was compatible with the existence of a deration of their prayer, for to say that protestant government, the argument for a keeping up in this country a distinction committee would be, unanswerable, nor which, though not essential to any other should be be disposed to object to it: but country, was essential to this, was ludi. the fact was, it was all or nothing that was crous. He should decline going into the asked for. A bill which went to this exconsideration of the domestic nomination, tent of granting every demand, was brought or the veto, and he should noly say, that if into the house of commons in the year 1813, the parliament of Great Britain should in and was read a first and second time. In its wisdom concede the prayer of the ca- the committee it was proposed by a very tholics under certain conditions, then one great authority (the Speaker), to omit that of two things must be done by the catho- clause which enabled Roman catholics to lics, either they must accept of it under sit in parliament. The clause was nega. these conditions, or they may refuse it. tived, and the authors of the bill considered He would ask their lordships, was it possi that omission as a defeat of the whole mea. ble that the present system could continue, sure. They exhibited no desire to obtain and would they really still consider the law additional advantages for the catholics ia esgential in all its parts ? Many reasons the army, in the navy, or at the bar: but urged him to give his vote for going into a because they could not carry all, refused committee, to see if even part of that all; and the bill was thrown out, not by prayer could be granted. By going into those who were the most unfavourable to it, that committee, no noble lord was pledged but by its authors and promoters.--Haviog to any measure, and he trusted their lord said so much as to the light in which the ships would therefore agree to go into the iminediate ynestion ought to be viewed, he committee, as the only means of ascertain, woald wish to make a few observations on ing what could or could not be granted on the ecclesiastical branch of the subject. proper securities.

He must, however, express at his outset The Earl of LIVERPOOL had heard with

his desire to clear the discussion of this no less satisfaction than the house, the

point from all extraneous consideratioos, speéch of his poble friend, marked as it was,

If concession was to be resolved on, not more by that acuteness of mind and

it was desirable, in his opinion, tbat it force of thought which always distinguished

should be made without any interference him, than by tbe most candid and unexagge

in the doctrines or discipline of the Irish rated statement: hut although he felt

catholic church. The case of those foreiga thankful to him for his clear exposition of

catholic churches, which existed under his argument, he was sorry that he must

protestant governments was essentially dif. differ from him in his conclusions. He

ferent from that under consideration. For wished, in the first place, to refer to what

example, he might allude to the relation he considered was the true situation of the

between Prussia and Silesia, or Russia question. It was, undoubtedly, compe

and her Polish provinces ; these were tertent to his noble friend to say, in support

ritories angexed to great states by treaty of a motion for appointing a committee to

or conquest, in which the population, the examine this or any other subject, that it

property, the church, all were catholic; was not bound to come to any certain reso

and in which the Roman catholic was, Jutions, or to recommend any specific

therefore, the established religion. They measures--but he must conténd, at the

could not deny the temporalities to the same time, that their lordships were enti

government; and we were equally entitled tled, before they assented to such a pro

to claim a jurisdiction over the civil es. position, to look at the real intention with

tablishment of Ireland ; but the catholic which it was brought forward. It was not

was not the established religion of Irelaud, pretended that the object was to redress

por ought parliament therefore tu assume any partial grievances, to make any par.

the authority of legislatiog on niatters af. tial concessions, or to reinove any particu

fecting the principles of its ecclesiastical lar anomalies : it was not urged that some

system. Much as had been said with renew inodifications of the act of 1793 had be

gard to the veto, and with regard to do. come necessary in the present circumstan

mestic nomination, he attached no impor

tance to regulations of that nature. They ces of the country; but the professed purpose was to place the Irish Roman catho

might be judicious restraints, if the object lics in every respect (some provisions with

of jealousy was the character of individurespect to the church alone excepted) on a

als; but' he believed that no men could be footing of equal privileges with protestant

more respectable than the catholic pred subjects. This he apprehended, was the

lates; and if there had been any exceptivos to this' remark, they had not proceeded from Irish nomination, but were to be to the jews, who might also conscienti. traced to a very different cause. It was ously maintain their own peculiar opinions not about the form of the nomination that on theological subjects ? Might he got, be entertained any scruples; the source of however here call upon their lordships to his objections and apprehensions was, that, consider how far they were going! The however named, they were necessarily sub. result of equal and general concession must ject to foreign influence, the pastors of the be to leave no difference between any deRomish church, and bound to pay obedience scription of dissenters and the established to a foreign ecclesiastical jurisdiction. church in any respect beyond endowment. He agreed entirely, that if concession must Parliament must immediately cease to be take place, it ought not to be made in an a protestant parliament.--He could not ungracious magner, a manner which must be supposed to mean that the inajority of cxcite painful feelings without affording | members would be no longer protestaot; any additional security. The only ques. | but the catholics whatever their oumbers, tion with him was, were they prepared to would constitute an integral part of the make the concession ? A right reverend | legislature, which must thus cease to be prelate (thre bishop of Landaff) had ob- l exclusively protestant. This would at once served, that in point of abstract principle effect an entire change in the system of the do description of persons could complain constitution, and must dissolve that intimate of unequal privileges, who voluntarily alliance between the church and state which placed themselves in a situation which for: ( had been established at the revolution, feited the equality of them. He should He wished their lordships to contemplate ask, not only as it affected the catholic, the consequences of adopting such a priabut every other body of dissenters from the ciple. How would it apply to the law established church, do they, when they re which excluded every other than a proquire equal privileges, offer equal condi testant king? Would it be possible to tions? And if they do not, can it be con maintain this part of the constitution, whilst tended that there is any injustice or inexpe every other obstruction was removed to all diency in distinguishing between them? - other offices, in favour of all other indiviWithout pretending to decide positively, duals? It would be hard indeed, that one he certainly entertained great doubts whe family alone should be excepted from the ther any civil government could long go on right of adhering conscientiously to their without the aid and union of some form of religious opinions, unless by the sacrifice ecclesiastical establishment. However that of the crown. He was aware it had been might be, he trusted this country would proposed to except likewise the lord chaunever make the experiment. At the pe cellor and the lord lieutenant of Ireland. riod of the revolution the connection be He should only say that these were regu.. tween the state and the church, as such lations quite rosatisfactory to his mind. was solemnly recognised; it was a con This question, however, yet remained to nection which pervaded all our institutions, be considered, with relation to the special and characterised every part of our system. and peculiar circumstances of Ireland.It was then settled, ihat the king himself The proposed measure had been representmust communicate with the church of I ed as one calculated to heal all past disEngland. The same rule was applied, sentions, to soothe and allay all animosities, although since not unwisely relaxed, to the and to create what had been termed a army and navy. The two houses of par moral union throughout every portion of liament were on some occasions parties to the empire. If he could really believe the performance of its rites and worship; that these consequences would follow from and the judges of the land, if not by posi its adoption, he should be extremely retive law, yet by immemorial custom, never luctant to withhold his support from it; opened their commissions without repairing but because he did not believe so, and to the established church. Thns deeply thought it would produce an opposite efwas the union he described impressed upon fect, he felt his objections to it fortities and all the forms of the constitution. Upon invincible. His noble friend had argued what principle, he desired to know, if that things could not remain as they now these concessions were allowed to the Ro are , he would rather ask, could they, if mao catholics, could they be refused to this measure should be carried, remain as every other class of dissenters? He ad- they now are? In that case grievances, mitted that all exclusion must sometimes or what would appear to be so, and be so operate harshly on individuals; and could called, would reinain behind. It then only be justified, therefore, on adequate would be considered as a grievous bardship, grounds of political expediency. The sect that were the majority of the population of dissenters called quakers is a very re- was catholic, ihe establishment should be spectable body, who were excluded by an protestant. It was useless to compare the act of their own. Why was not conces- circumstaaces of Ireland with those of sion to be extended to them, or why not countries in wbich the population and exa

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