tholic communicants. Lord Bristol, it was well known, had openly avowed, that where his duty as a British peer, and his duty as a catholic, happened to counteract, he thought, each other, he had not hesitated to sacrifice his duty as a peer to religious considerations. Locke, that enlightened and unprejudiced statesman and philosopher, had designated the catholic body as a sect which ought not to be tolerated. The history of the growth of the papal power, displayed a series of struggles on the part of the most powerful and absolute monarchs, for 500 years, against the continually successful encroachments of the papacy. From the time of the reformation, the nature of the struggle had been altered, and the contest was maintained between the catholics against the reformers, sup. ported by a train of plots, treasons, and assassinations, appalling to humanity. The docrine of this church was, that as the tenets of the protestant church lead to the high road to perdition, the duty of each catholic was to endeavour, by all possible means, to counteract the increase of that sect. Notwithstanding the intolerance of the catholic, he would still advise that it should itself be tolerated, although he was was by no means disposed to arm intolerance with political power. If there were no danger to be apprehended from the increase of the franchises and privileges of the catholic body, he would ask what reason was there for the securities which had this night been offered. Of the electors of Ireland, four-fifths were catholics; would not these electors constantly return both county members to parliament ? Would they long let their newly-gotten power slumber? Put it to historical proof-in the three parliaments, from 1615 to 1681, in which both catholic and protestant members had been elected to serve, the clergy by oaths at the altars-the terror of pains and penalties, denunciations and excommunications, contrived to ensure an immense majority of catholic members; in one of these parliaments, it appeared there were but six protestants returned to serve. These facts were stronger than all abstract argument, and if the boon demanded this night were granted, he was satisfied that it would not only create a catholic ascendancy in Ireland, but shake the protestant ascendancy in England to its very basis. Mr. W. ELLLIOT said, during the speech of the honourable member (Mr. Foster,) he had observed the considerable effect produced by the extracts read from a pamphlet published bydoctor P. Gandolphy, for the tenets contained in which it would be found he had been suspended. With this work he proceeded to Rome, and laid it before an accredited officer of the papal court, whose sanction he obtained. This officer, styled the Master of the Apostolic Palace, it had since been discovered, had, through the misrepresentation of doctor Gandolphy, and his total ignorance of the English language, been induced to give an imprimatur, or approval of its contents.— Upon the discovery of its contents at Rome, cardinal Litta immediately acquainted doctor Poynter here with the circumstance, and begged it to be understood, that the approval of the master at Rome had been surreptitiously obtained, upon which doctor Gandolphy was immediately, and still continues suspended. The whole fabric, therefore, erected by the honourable member upon the contents and tendency of this work, fell to the ground. It was no longer authenticated or sanctioned by the court of Rome. What bad subsequently fallen from that honourable member only went to prove that the minds of the catholic population had been so completely alienated in Ireland that would be better they should remain for ever in the state in which they were. What! was it to be endured that parliament was now to be told, at a period like the present, that no securities would be devised sufficiently satisfactory? The controversy had been heightened, if not altogether occasioned, by the delay of parliament; the longer that delay continued the warmer and greater would he that controversy. The interposition of parliament was now calied for on both sides, to adjust at once, by legislative means, all the differences which subsisted between the different parties, and which bad originated in the culpable delay of that house. Upon the subject of securities he should give it as his own opinion, whatever weight that might have, that the hest security was to be found in the repeal of all the remaining penal laws and disabilities. In the year 1813, he had actually acquiesced in the conditions then proposed, and should feel himself warranted in doing the same again under similar circumstances. This he bad done then, and should do again with a view to obtain the measure of emancipation.— The great hope of the country at this moment, lay in the prospect of conciliation, and consequent cordiality and unanimity. This was only to be effected by doing away with all civil distinctions and disabilities. This was the true mode to restore confidence, concord, and harmony, in both the catholic and protestant bodies. The ca tholic would thus become a convert to the principles of toleration professed and acted upon by the protestant.. This was the part of the question to which he had feit it his duty, in the first instance, to draw the attention of the house. The dangers apprehended, proceeded from various causes.— (Here the honourable member appeared so much affected by the asthma, that he was for some time unable to proceed)—As for his part he had never considered it upon the ground of abstract right. The petitioners were different parts of the same that body; yet their general interests were the same, whatever might be the shades of difference in their sentiments as to the extent of concession, or modification of their religious sentiments, in order to obtain political rights and privileges. The protestant and catholic, too, are alike different parts of the same body; yet even they were not without a common interest. The crown, it was justly said, was protestant; the state also protestant; yet the encroachment made on the penal statutes existing at the commencement of this century, stood high amongst the most splendid and beneficent acts of the present reign. As for his part, he had never been considered insensible to the dangers of the community; some had thought him the very reverse; yet in this instance he saw, he rejoiced to avow it, little cause to alarm the most timid. In times succeeding the reformation, during a disputed accession to the throne, or during the reign of childless sovereigns, apprehension might very fairly be entertained with respect to the security of a protestant accession; yet it was the true policy of this country generally, and the true object of the first care of parliament to provide, by all possible means, the population of the country, from one end to the other, should be without cause of complaint, moving forward in the common path of duty, in terms of cordial amity and affectionate brotherhood. When within those walls they talked of catholic concession, what did it mean? It only meant that they had, by means of certain legislative provisions, the power to create a moral effect on the catholic mind most beneficial and consonant to the interests of both catholic and protestant. Two centuries of experience bad shewn that the expectation was unfounded upon which the penal laws had been grounded, namely, that the catholic would abjure a persecuted faith. The legislature might shake, by heaping restrictions on them, the foundation of their morals, but they would only render them worse catholics, and worse subjects. In their anxiety to support the protestant ascendancy, they would, in effect, create an aristocracy, and property destitute of all authority-a people destitute of either morality or true religion. This would, indeed, he the consummation of all our calamities. Instead of the honourable member, who had replied to the right hon. mover, branding those who advocated the cause of concession with a disposition to effect a revolution in the order of things, be would do well to consider if he were not, by such insinuation, poisoning the catholic mind, and troubling the very elements of -society. The various other topics of danger alluded to in the course of debate he considered comparatively unimportant. It was absurd to think that in the present state of this country the continuance of the penal laws could afford any security adequate to the danger likely to arise from their continuance. Much was to be apprehended from their operation on the anxious and already irritated state of the public mind. It was contended, that various offices, in Ireland particularly, were open alike to the application of their talents, and those of their fellow-countrymen. But would it be requisite to prove that there must result an indisposition to embrace the opportunity thus offered, under the natural feeling of discontent at the wide range of disquali fication which still continued to dishearten and oppress their exertions and energy This was the natural feeling under such circumstances. A particular limitation, especially when founded on illiberal distinctions, soon amounted to a general inhibition; and it must be the more sorely felt when the parties who had to complain that the tenets of their religion had alone disqualified them to fill those offices to which they were peculiarly eligible, from their being the descendants of the most ancient and honourable stock of a country. for whose welfare they and their ancestors had, with the noblest self-devotion, shed their best blood. The honourable member concluded with expressing an anxious wish that the house would consent to go into a committee. Lord CASTLEREAGH.-The question to which the house were now directing their av tention, was one of the greatest importance in every view which could possibly be taken of it. It had repeatedly been before them, and had received such ample discussion as to render any new argument almost impossi ble; and therefore, in the observations he was now to submit to the house, he should be as short as possible. No point, no topic whatever in the course of the present debate, had struck him, and he was sure had impressed the house more forcibly, than the wish of a right hon. gentleman that this question was for ever set at rest.—Never, he was sure, couìd a more important favour be conferred on the country than by this being done. No person attached to the constitution, he was confident, but would rejoice that this should be done, and it was the duty of every friend of his country to do every thing to preserve the public harmony. If the slightest danger was to be apprehended from this measure, it was incumbent on the house to stand where it was, and not go one step further, but boldly face the danger. The question now came before them in a most interesting point of view, and it would, be was persuaded, meet that attention which it so justly deserved. It was by no means new, as he had already observed, for it had been already supported in the house by a bill which was read a second time, and lost by a small majority in the committee. There were so many considerations in favour of the proposition, that unless with which his speech abounded, and the clearness with which he had made his statements. It might, however, appear to the house a paradox; but the fact was, that most of the circumstances adduced by his bonourable friend, as objections to granting any concession to the catholics, wère with him (Lord C.) motives for granting that concession. The ultramontane doctrine attributed by his honourable friend to Rome, formerly threatening evil, but now innotious;—the restoration of the order of jesuits, received with gratitude in the countries in which it had taken place, on the same principle, unintelligible to us, 00 which the inquisition was popular in Spain, ➡these circumstances, diminished as the danger was, in other respects, appeared to him only to furnish arguments for doing at present what our ancestors were wrong in abstaining from doing-destroying the exclusive system. That melancholy wast of charity between man and man in Ireland, to which his honourable friend had alluded, formed of itself an additional ground for acceding to the present proposition. He wished to do what would destroy the exclusive system with respect to the catholics. It would be an additional pleasure to him, if that could be done in a way that would be acceptable to them. But whether or not it pleased the catholics, he wished it to be accomplished: because it would put things on a footing which he believed in his conscience the good of the empire required. He believed, that a sound temper would never exist in Ireland, while religious considerations continued in that country on their present narrow basis. Never would he believe that any existing danger could be aggravated by the introduction into parlia strong case of danger were exhibited, he could not consent by opposing it, to give the opportunity for the annual recurrence of a discussion so prejudicial to the general tranquillity. Any great question hanging year after year, about parliament and the empire, was an evil, but when religious were mixed with political considerations, the evil became much more serious in its nature. He was not one of those who 'would contend that in constitutional questions we ought to take the tone of other countries. He would not therefore refer to what had taken place in other states, as an example for Great Britain to follow. Still, however, it was important to look to the general feelings of the world on this subject, as affording a pregnant mode of estimating the advantageous change of sentiment that had taken place with respect to it. It was impossible to contemplate the sempet recently manifested in Europe, with out feeling that the former dangers connected with the question were considerably diminished, if not wholly removed. There was a period when the alliance of the pope was courted by all, and when he had it in his power to convulse Europe by his influence. Latterly, however, Rome had not interfered in political questions. Let the house carry its attention back to the treaty of Westphalia, in which the question of religion formed so leading a feature: in which eatholic votes were balanced against protestant votės, and in which the principle of exclusion was carried inter effect. What was the case at present? When the great political questions of Europe were last discussed, he had never heard the subject of religion mentioned in any of those discussions. In the diversified states of Germany, in some of which the protestant religion,ment of a few noble catholic peers, or of a and in others the catholic religion predomi- | nated, the whole body chose equality of religion as the basis of their mutual arrangements. He did not mention this as affording an example to this country, but he mentioned it to shew that in the days in which we lived there was no reason to suppose that the exclusive principle, opposed as it was by so large a class of the community, could be long maintained.He put it to those who were most adverse to concession, whether the question would remain to be discussed at the present moment, were it not for the rash and intemperate conduct which the the catholics themselves had pursued. fact was that the denial of the catholic claims, which had hitherto been persisted in, was attributable not so much to a wish on the part of the protestants to monopolize the privileges of the state, as to the indiscretion of the catholics in the way in which they had claim ed those privileges. Although he differed in opinion from his honourable friend, who had spoken second in the present debate (Mr. Foster), he had listened to him with great pleasure, in conséquence of the information The few generous catholic commoners. On the contrary, he was persuaded, that they would be the foremost to repress any deluded people of their own religious persuasion, who might be tempted to disturb the public tranquillity; and the concession of the catholic claims would afford them most powerful means of achieving an object so desirable. It was the unhappiness of Ireland, under its present circumstances, that the state had not sufficient talents to maintain itself, and carry it through adverse circumstances. A connexion with the higher ranks of the catholic body would afford an aid in that respect which would be invaluable. He therefore, denied that this proposition specially stood on the ground of indulgence to the catholics. Were it even repugnant to them, he would press its adoption, because, whatever might be the present pain, the ultiinate benefit, to which parliament ought invariably to look in their legislative enactments, would be decisive. He would not allow himself therefore to be discouraged by any remaining intolerance which the catholics might exhibit, or by any other unpleasing tively passed the British parliament. It was certainly painful to him to see that great body of Irish Catholic Bishops, whom, in times of disturbance, he had always found disposed to exert themselves to tranquillize the public mind, so far bend to the popular feeling as to repress their own feelings, and oppose that which was not hostile to their | religion, and which in the document of 1799 they had allowed. Still, however, he did not believe that they would shew any serious repugnance to acquiesce in what the see of Rome had declared to be not inconsistent with catholic doctrine. But if they should not be sensible of the benefit, he would act in this case as he had acted at the union--he would adopt a measure the advantages of which time would demonstrate. wished to say a word on what had fallen from his right honourable friend-near him. He (Lord C.) attached great importance to such a regulation of the arrangement as would give the crown a distinct knowledge of the individual to be made a catholie He feather in the state of Ireland. He allowed that change not calculated to produce advantage, was to be cautiously avoided, but in the present case, he contended, that the prosperity of the empire hinged on an alter ation in our system. It was, he repeated it, a most desirable thing to set aside, and lay asleep a great question which afflicted the legislature everysession, and during itsexİştence left Ireland a prey to agitators Having said this much with respect to the general question of concession, he came now to consider that of security; and here he was sa tished that little difference of opinion existe ed between his hooorable friend and himself, except that he regarded the difficulty of obtaining the necessary security as much less than his honourable friend appeared to think it. He went along with his honourable friend in declaring, that unless all the security which oaths could give was afforded by the catholics, the proposed measure ought not to be acceded to. But this appeared to him to be of no difficult accomplishment. The pope had already sanchishop, before that individual assumed the tioned oaths on the part of the catholics, than which none more comprehensive could be required from the catholics of Ireland. He completely agreed with his honourable friend in adopting it as an indispensible security, that no intercourse should be permitted with the see of Rome, which did not pass through the state. Were there no other reason than that a similar precaution was resorted to in all other states, it would be sufficient. It was a security, which the country owed to itself; and there was no reason to suppose that the catholics would abject to it. With respect to the authority of the state in the nomination of the catho lic clergy, it had been truly observed by his hon. friend, that in Prussia, the only protestant continental state in which catholic bishops were permitted, these bishops were gominated by the Government; and that in the other protestant statęs, the inferior Clergy were also so nominated. No rational catholic could therefore suggest conscience aan objection to the adoption of similar regulations in Ireland. They might certainly say, that they would rather be without those regulations; they might express their apprehension that they might be placed by them too much under the influence of Government; but they could not object to them on the ground of conscience. Rome bad renounced on that subject. Quarantotti's rescript (however indecently it had been ridiculed) was made in full communication with all the authorities of the.romish church. It was an important circumstance with respect to that document, as throwing a light on the disposition of the see of Rome, to facilitate all such arrangements as were calculated to establish a more liberal policy, that that rescription was issued by Qua raa totti, en onthedra, on the impression that the bill to which it inferred had posi sacred function. There would be many instances in which government would have a more ample knowledge of such an individual character even than the ecclesiastics, by whom he might be chosen. As to the consent of the catholics to this, he conceived that there were the strongest reason to expect that the catholics of Ireland would manifest as decided a disposition to place confidence in the liberality of their crown and state as the catholics of other countries did in theirs. If not, it would, in his opinion, be a pretty strong intimation that the time for concession had not yet arrived. But he had no difficulty, in expressing his conviction that were the proposition made to the catholic bishops to-morrow, they would acquiesce, and gratefully acquiesce. As to an election of the bishop, within the chapter, he deprecated that as tending to great practical abuse. He was confident that such a system would introduce a spirit of democratic contest, mischievous in all countries, but particularly in such a country as Ireland. His right ton. friend had dwelt much on the repugnance exhibited by the catholics to the Veto. He (Lord C.) regretted that the word had ever been used. Every body knew how much there was in a name, especially in the country of which he had the honour to be a native. repulsive name be given to any thing in that country and there was an end to it; and veto was a forbidden word. But whatever might be the nature of the security eventu ally required, he certainly thought it would be most advisable that a period should intervene between that in which both houses of parliament might declare their general sentiments on the question, and the ultimate enactment of any bill that might be founded on those sentiments. An opportunity would by that means be afforded of ascer Let a taining with more precision the opinion of Rome, so that when the act came into operation in Ireland, it should have the united force of a temporal and spiritual measure. All doubt of the opinion of Rome being removed, he was convinced that such an act would be carried into effect in Ireland with as much ease and tranquillity as a turnpike bill. Not, however, that he felt any difficulties with respect to the opinion of Rome; for that opinion had been so distinctly pronounced, that they would not be legislating in the dark, whatever measure they might think proper to adopt. On all these grounds he felt himself, 24 on former occasions, bound in duty to upport his right hon. friend's motion. He was persuaded that the question could not otherwise be got rid of; and this ought to operate as a strong practical motive to induce those who were not altogether favour ble to concession to withdraw their opposition to it. He saw no danger in the measure. He did not believe that the quantum of power which it would give the catholics would enable them to do mischief, if they were disposed to do any. He did not believe that the introduction of a few catholic gentlemen in parliament would be productive of any danger to the state. On the contrary, he was convinced that it would diminish the existing danger, by softening the religious animosities which existed in Ireland-that most valuable and most interesting portion of the empire. He was persuaded by the indirect influence of the ca tholics in that house was much more injurious than the direct influence could be; because the latter would be accompanied by responsibility. If the catholic gentlemen came into parliament they would come to make a character, and to dispel those gloomy conceptions which too many protestants we re disposed to entertain of them. He thought that a protestant brought into parliament under the operation of catholic influence, ma vifesting in the exercise of the elective franchise, was more likely to pander to catholic prejudices, than the son of lord Kildare or lord Fingal. So far was he from apprehending danger from the introduction of such individuals, that all he should dread was, that for some time not enough would be sent to soften down those asperities which every true friend to the country must wish to remove. Until they had got the catholics among them in that house, fighting the battles of the constitution, as in our wars they had so bravely fought the battles of the country, he should never be satisfied. Feeling this strongly, he should be guilty of great baseness were be not to declare it. During a part of his life he had considered it his duty, under existing circumstances to oppose the claims of the Catholics. But those circumstances no longer existing, he was bound to make an earnest and a solemn appeal to the house in their support. Until the subject should be disposed of the legislature should never enjoy repose; nor should we appear in the eyes of Europe and the world as we ought to do an empire, consolidating its varied population into one great mass, actuated by the same interests, and directing its energies to the same objects. Mr. PEEL, in a speech of great eloquence, which was frequently cheered by the house, began by expressing his surprise that no person, up to that precise period of the debate, had deigned to state to the house the course which would be pursued if this motion were carried. The object of the inquiry was stated to be such a final and conciliatory arrangement as might be conducive to the power and strength of the united kingdoms, the stability of the protestant establishments, and the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his majesty's subjects. But what probability was there, he should ask, that the inquiry proposed would lead to such a satisfactory arrangement; the measure of 1813, so far from having produced such favourable re sults, had only given rise to more embarrassment than previously existed. His noble friend (Castlereagh) had expressed it as his opinion on a former occasion, that the crown should be invested with certain powers with respect to the appointment of catholic prelates, and with regard to the inspection of all correspondence between the clergy of Ireland and the see of Rome. He understood from his noble friend that he still thought some securities of this kind' ought to be demanded from the catholics. He would ask him then, if he thought it probable, that if the concession was clogged with any such securities, it would give any thing like satisfaction to that class of his majesty's subjects for whom it was intended. The house had already a distinct opinion of the catholic prelates of Ireland, which forbade them to hope that they would agree to such securities. If they should go into the committee then, they would either go into it with the intention of proposing the enactment of these securities, which the catholic clergy of Ireland deemed it Inconsistent with their religion to agree to ; or they would go into it with some other plan. Now in this last case, he wanted to know what that plan was? It was desirable, before they went into the committee, to know if they had any thing to propose more likely to be satisfactory than that which was already known to the house. After the resolutions passed by the catholic prelates in Ireland, and after the mistake which had already taken place with respect to the authority given by Dr. Milner, they ought to know explicitly what authority they had for presuming that the arrangement would give satisfaction to the catholics be |