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as he said, to his superiors here, expecting justice from Rome; and thither he accordingly went with Ins book, and submitted it to the censors, who are, as he says, of such authority, that the pope cannot publish without consulting them. The book re. ceived the imprimatur of those persons, who were the master of the apostolic palace, the master of sacred theology, and the professor of the holy scriptures; but it was not a simple permission to print which he received, but an approval in the bighest terms they stated, that having rigidly ex amined the book, they were of opinion, that it made "the catholic faith clearer than the light" to the people of an island once fruitful in saints, and that many editions of this book, worthy to be cased in cedar and gold, would confer benefits on the world." He should not be able to read the whole of the book, though he hoped to induce some per sous present to do so. The book, speaking of protestantism in England, said, that it was a severe visitation of the Lord on the people-that it was better a land should be visited by pestilence and the sword, &c. That the bishop of London, not speaking of the individual who now held that office, but of that dignitary in general, was (he was obliged to repeat uncourtly terms,) an emissary of the spirit of darkness, a messenger from the father of lies. It said also, that the reformation was an unjustifiable rebellion against the power of the catholic church, and drew a curious parallel between the power of the king aud that of the pope, to prove that the one was founded in strength, the other in truth. Such was the work worthy to be cased in cedar and gold! He did not lay too great a stress on this work; yet, surely, when they considered the restoration of the jesuits, the prohibi tion of the holy scriptures, and the doctrines thus put forth auder such authority, if they thought all these things trifles, they might shut their eyes at once, and plunge boldly into measures, of which they could not foresee the consequences. But all these facts, in his opinion, made it still more necessary to hesitate, before they consented to admit the catholics into the enjoyment of civil power, without exacting from them any of those securities which the experience of the christian world had shewn to be necessary. The hon. mem. ber referred to the transactions of 1641, in order to suew the disposition of the catholic population of Ireland. About that period, lord Castlehaven, and other members of the catholic aristocracy, had a meeting, which was called the council of Kil kenny, and the object of which was to promote measures of conciliation, by establishing a system of harmony between the catholic people and the protestant goverument of England. But the object of this meeting was thwarted by the interposition of the catholic clergy, who had so much influence among the people, as to defeat the views of the aristocracy; for the wish of the catholic clergy was to get possession of all the churches, with the property which belonged to those churches; and as the catholic aristocracy would not co-operate with them for that purpose, the latter were put down, and the former were triumphant, for the catholic people concurred with them. In support of this statement, he was enabled to quote the authority of the pope's nuncio, at that time in Ireland, who communicated to his government in Rome, that the catholic clergy had assumed the executive government, confounding the catholic lords who opposed them, and excommunicating the lord lieutenant himself, together with the magis tracy. Such was the conduct of the catholic clergy.

in Ireland, as it appeared from indisputable history, at a remote period, and if any commotion should at any time take place in that country, the influence of the clergy would be paramount. There was, indeed, no question whatever in his mind, that whatever might be the disposition of the catholic aristocracy, the clergy would prevail with the catholic people, and that that clergy would pursue the same objects as their predecessors had done in 1641. For the main object of the catholic clergy in Ireland was, not by any means so much the communication of civil privileges to the laity, as the acquisition of power and property for them selves. The generality of the people of this country were, in fact, almost totally unacquainted with the actual condition and circumstances of Ireland. It was a great mistake to suppose that the principles, of the reformation had made any material progress in that country. Those who were led to a contrary conclusion from the statutes of the Irish parliament in the reign of Heury VIII. were egregiously ia error; for the reformation by no means proceeded pari pass u with these statutes. The dominion in fact, of this parliament extended only to comparatively short distance from Dublin, while the remainder of the kingdom was under the controul of the papists, who set the authority of parliament at defiance. It was also an error to suppose that the progress of the reformation cor responded with the conquests of queen Elizabeth. Those conquests had indeed no effect in promoting the reformation. But much was done by James. the First to advance the reformation in Ireland, by introducing into that country a number of settlers of the same language, principles, and manners as the reformers of England, and the rebellion of Tyrone furnished that sovereign with a pretext for multiplying and establishing these settlers. great part, indeed, of the north of Ireland was granted to these protestant settlers, who took possession of the fertile vallies or more cultivated territory, while the papist inhabitants were driven into the mountains. This system, however, only applied to a part, perhaps not more than a third of the north of Ireland, but could not be extended throughout the country, the far greater part of which still remained in the possession of the pa pists. But the line of demarcation between the lands of the protestant settlers and those of their papist neighbours was not sufficiently marked to guard against dissension, and therefore perpetual feuds prevailed between the parties. These feuds were not yet extinguished, and to them, rather than to orange associations, the conflicts which unhappily so often agitated that part of Ireland, were really attributable. The battle of the Boyne, as well as other events which distinguished the reign of king William, were very naturally a source of triumph and congratulation among the pretestants, because to those events they very justly ascribed the security of their liberties, their lives, and their properties; therefore they were anxious to celebrate the anniversary of such events, but in proceeding to do so, which they always did without arms, they were anuoyed by the papists. Indeed, where three or four protestants happened to travel through any part of the country, mostly inhabited by papists, in order to join in any procession.or demonstration of joy, upon such anuiversaries they were usually assaulted by the papists, and being so set upon, they naturally sought protection in the first protestant habitation they could reach. In such houses, they often found arms, with which. they sallied upou their assailants, and through a

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spirit very excusable in human nature, the papists | whom they had to deal were of a different' were sometimes shot or wounded, but the catho-opinion, they could not treat with the Ro lics were always the aggressors. Such conséquences were of course to be lamented, but on the trial of those who used the arms at any ensuing assizes, the case was too often misrepresented; for the catholics being only liable to be tried for an assault, while the protestants were perhaps under Lord Ellenborough's act, any jury, acquainted with all the circumstances of the case, was likely to acquit the latter. The grounds of the acquittal, however, were suppressed by the popish press of Ireland, which immediately blazoned forth in large letters "the acquittal of orange murderers or protestant felons." Thus the population of Ireland, as well as that of England, were misled, for the couse. quence of the revenge aloue was made known, while the wantonness and violence of the aggression was totally suppressed. After a few further observations, the honourable gentleman concluded by exhorting the house not to accede to the motion.

Mr. YORKE said, he did not intend to speak at much length upon the question. He should confine his views of it within a very narrow compass. The circumstances of Europe were now such, that an opinion on the subject may be more freely delivered; and they were come to such a crisis, that they must decide the question one way or another. It had been so frequently discussed in that house, it was so often before the public, that every one was able to give his verdict upon it, and he was now ready to give his. He much feared that it would not be in his power to satisfy any party. Some may think that he was prepared to go too far, and others may perhaps blame him for not going far enough. With such apprehensions before him, he would, however, deliver his opinion. It may be a mistaken one, but it certainly at least would be an honest one. The great difficulty which he always found in the question of catholic emancipation was, the exist ence of a foreign influence; and nothing could possibly induce him to give way or yield in any degree to the demands of the catholics but a perfect security to the protestant religion and protestant establishment. When this question was before the house upon a former occasion, it was a time of war. It was a period at which the subject of security could not be discussed with any practical benefit. All Europe, the greater part of it at least, was then subject to France. The pope was then the vassal, he was even the prisoner of France, and of course it was impossible understanding with him. It was highly important that he should be placed in such circumstances as to render it possible to communicate with him in such a way as may lead to free discussion, not because the parlia ment were bound to take his opinion upon this subject or upon any other; no, the right way for the parliament was to decide without any reference to the authority of the pope. But, because the people with

to come to an

man catholics npon the subject of security
unless they took the pope with them. If
the catholics acquiesced in any measure
of security proposed, the pope may reject
it, and say that he could not adopt it, that
it was not to be heard of. It was fit, then,
that this difficulty should be arranged. At
present there was an opening for it, which
did not exist before, because the pope was
now sui juris. He was now in a situation
to be negociated with. In giving his opi-
nion upon this subject, he had always said
that he had rather take it up when the pope
was master of himself. No person could,
therefore, justly accuse him ofinconsistency.
The catholics also stood more favourably
at present with respect to their petitions.
They stated clearly that they were now
willing to agree to the oath proposed in
1813. If they were willing to abide by
that oath, and if it should appear by nego
ciation with the pope that the oath was
such as a catholic may take, he then would
confess himself satisfied. Then came the
nomination of the bishops. He was al-
ways of opinion that it was fit to take from
the pope the virtual nomination of the
bishops of Ireland. Whether that was
done by a Veto or otherwise it was not
material to him, so that it gave full satis-
faction upon the subject of security. He
was much suprised that the bishops of Ire-
land had not before recourse to domestic
nomination. The principle of a domestic
church was highly desirable, but it was
necessary that the nomination should be
purely national, and that the bishops should
swear to name no person to a vacant bi-

shopric but a man of pure morals and ap-
proved loyalty; that the election should
be a fair one, not numerous, but by capitu
lary or otherwise, to be regulated by the
bill. If the consecration of the pope was
necessary, it would be essential, in his
opinion, that the pope should bind himself
either to consecrate the person named, or
else to delegate his consecrating authority
to the four archbishops of Ireland. If this
plan of nomination was adopted he would
have no objection to it. Such domestic
nomination could do no more injury in Ire-
land than in Scotland, provided it was
purely national, and the influence of the
pope merely ministerial. The Roman
catholic petition mentioned a "Regium
placitum," giving to the crown a power of
inspecting all documents transmitted from,
Rome. He believed they had no objection
to this now, and it was an important con-
sideration. It was now material to be.
considered what securitythere was that such
a negociation could be entered into with the
pope, and in that event what chance there
was of success. Even if a bill were brought
in, he should say, that the measure ought
not to be completed without authentic in-

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claims conceded, it only, therefore, remained to decide upon what terms those were to be. He could not but consider that the present was the best time to deliberate upon such a subject, when we were in a state of profound peace, after we had conquered the greatest enemy this country

Formation from Bome on the subject of domestic nomination, and also the" Regium placitum." Without this he would unt proceed any farther. The negociation with Rome should not be conducted by the bishops of Ireland, but fairly entered into with the pope by government. A bill may be brought in, with a clause permit-ever had to assail her. No man could say ting such intercourse, the bill not to take how long such a state of things would last, effect without authentic information from and therefore he thought it best that whatthe pope upon the points alluded to. There ever consideration the claims were to have had never been any chance of the catholic should be given to them as soon as possible. claims being acceded to without some ex- At all events, no bill should be received ceptions; some exceptions had always been without the stipulation of certain condi proposed, and he himself would always tions, and whatever they were, he sincerely be ready to concede them under certain hoped that they would destroy all the conditions. He would have the greatest animosity which subsisted between the difficulty to satisfy himself with regard to countries. It would, he hoped, bring the the seats in parliament, and the occupying sister kingdoms to be more attached to each of efficient offices under the crown. He other than they had ever hitherto been; freely admitted that the concession of the it would reconcile all differences; and it the claims depended upon there being by would enable all to live in that happiness that concession no danger to the state. If and harmony which the constitution of one were certain that there would be no England so happily provided. It was danger in granting the claims of the Irish necessary, in his opinion, to have those catholics, he should be of opinion that they arrangements made soon, which would so would be much nearer gaining them than essentially conduce to the well-being of they had hitherto been, but that was what each country; for it was unfortunate that he could by no means allow If the Ro- nations had no sooner escaped from perilman catholics of Ireland were like the ous contest, than they again plunged themRoman catholics of any other country in selves into disquietude. England had Europe, he would have very little difficulty been so peculiarly situated, that it was in his own mind to grant what they re often her fate to bear up against the atquested; but he was sorry to say, that he tacks of enemies from every side. It was believed them to be the most bigoted catho- her greatness which caused her to be so lics that now existed. If they were like obnoxious to those by whom she was surthose of France and Germany, perhaps he rounded; and the greatness which had should have less difficulty. It was true he preserved her wight again throw her into should be glad to see the Howards, the calamities which would require all her Cliffords, and the Arundels taking their exertions for her preservation. He had seats in our parliament, and the Plunketts no doubt but something would be done and Barnwells from over the water, but which would satisfy the catholics. At all the greater part of the catholics of Ireland events, it was the business of the house to were of the description he had stated, and do right; that he hoped they would do, on the disposition of the greater part it and it would be a means of consolidating was that he founded his opinion. There the union of the two countries, and conwere, however, so many intelligent menfirming that in mutual attachment, which

who were themselves from the country, that he was rather backward in his opinion, when they would know so much better the precise state of Ireland than himself; and he could by no means imagine that those gentlemen would lend themselves to any measure which would prove injurious to their own interests and the real interests of the nation to which they were bound. He should expect to hear the real condi tion and disposition of the catholic inha bitants of Ireland described by those gentlemen; but what his opinions might be in other respects, he could not but think that things could not go on as they were; some alteration would have to take place of necessity, and he hoped they would be such as would be of advantage to this country. He had as yet scarcely heard any man who did not allow that on particular terms the catholics might have their

ORTHOD. JOUR. VOL. V.

mutual interest had rendered necessary.

Sir J. C. Hippisley spoke in defence of his measures, but in so low a tone of voice, as to be inaudible to the reporters.

Sir H. PARNELL had to thank the right hon. gentleman who had spoken on the other side of the house, (Mr, Yorke) for his very valuable, very candid, and in every re spect conciliating, and excellent speech. With regard to domestic nomination in Ireland, he had observed, that the right hon. gentleman who had spoken on the second bench opposite, bad in many®respects, completely mis-stated the facts, and he could assure the right hon. gentleman, that those nominations would be found to be such as to satisfy his mind, that they would furnish every security to the pro testants of Great Britain that they could possibly require. The hon. member on the second bench had stated, that a bishop'

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had the privilege of appointing a co-adjutor. He had likewise stated, that that coadjutor might occupy the place of the bishop who appointed him. Now, this was not the fact. This appointment of a co-adjutor by no means prevailed as a geperal occurrence in Ireland. No person in fact was appointed to fill the place of a bishop, except that bishop was incapacitated in some manner from fulfilling the duties of his situation; except that it was in some way or other impossible that he could discharge his duty. He would state to the hon. gentleman what the practice was at present, and he begged him and the house would remember it. The beneficed clergy first gave their opinion, and three persons were selected to fill the vacant see, The name of these three persons were sent over to the pope, and he almost as a matter of course, though not certainly as a matter of right, nominated the first person in the list who was commonly elected. Many persons might be disposed to feel offended at the circumstance he had stated. In his opinion there was no reason why it should be a cause of any man's displeasure. A misunderstanding might arise so that the Hope might exercise a power which he possessed of refusing to nominate a bishop recommended; nay, he might appoint any other person to the bishopric whom he chose, even a foreigner, or, if he pleased, he might keep the see vacant. The pope, it would be seeu, then possessed a considerable power in the appointment of bishops, though it had been considered better to have the bishoprics more scarce than they were under such unlimited jurisdiction. Indeed, to render them still more secu e in connexion with the liberty, and afety of the country with whom they were united, they had proposed, that an agreement should be entered into with his holinese, or as it was called, a concordatum. When this was once agreed on with the Pope by the Irish clergy, all apprehensions would be removed, which might have been entertained of any interference on his part, Nomination would then become almost entirely, national, and no fear might be entertained of the pope's giving his veto in any manner, which might prove offensive. It would then be a principle to elect no person who should not be a native, of the country, and of no person who should be really, obnoxious to the establishments of the country. There was an oath which the bishops were to take, which he would tead to the house, and then they might judge for themselves [The honourable,baronet then read the oath, which was nearly follows A B do most solemnly 4wear that I will not effect or connive at the election of any man whom I do not believe to be a loyal and faithful subject, and of a peaceable demeanour and dispositions and that I will not attempt by open

force or by secret fraud, to subvert ar destroy the constitution either in church or state. Nor will I attack any thing as by law established, and if by any correspondence, or any other means, I discover any persons endeavouring so to do, I will without delay make it known to his majesty's government."This was the oath, and as far as the solemnity and binding of an oath would go, he might ask, what greater security could be procured? The catholic bishops, heunderstood were ready to take that oath, and were also willing he was certain, to agree and acquiesce in every thing which was required of them that was reasonable. The honourable gentleman on the second bench had said, that there was no tangible principle o which to have a committee established. What could be required? The catholics had offered every concession--they had deter mined to give up every thing they could with consistency concede. It was objected that there was something of a foreigu influence exercised upon the election of bishops; that they had agreed to give up. They had determined to exclude all foreign influence. All that was required was, in his opinion, to go into that detail which it was necessary to make, in order to show that they did not intend any thing against the protestant juterest, but only to secure to themselves the enjoyment of such privileges as would give them that portion of the liberties of the country which was their right. He should not longer detain the house, but he earnestly hoped that they would go into the committee, and give the the claims of the catholics that consideration which they only required in order to be conceded.

Mr. WEBBER. The present question was one of the utmost importance to this country; but, as it regarded Irelaud, it involved the subversion of the church, and still more, the stability of the English connection. It was unnecessary to enter into the comparative merits of the veto and domestic nomination. The for mer, as it implied the interference of a foreign power, would contravene the exhisting laws for repressing the papal power; and the latter was still worse, for it erected an independent corporate establishment, unconnected with the legislature, and independent of the government of the country. Either of them was hostile to the princi ples of the glorious revolution of 1689, and even extended to a counter-revolution of every thing effected at that time to res strain the papal authority. He complained of the use of the term Emancipation, which implied a pre-existing state of slavery, altogether inconsistent with the cou dition of the Roman catholics of this em pire. It, however, had been attended with many mischievous effects, and had, by the disingenuous use of it, induced

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men of ardent minds and lofty spirits, to fancy themselves degraded from their proper rank and of freemen. Much of the ill-will and hostile feeling that unhappily belonged to the discussion of this question, might be attributed to this; and there were many persons distinguished for high character, splendid talents, rank, and fortune, who had been made the dopes and instruments of this fallacy. A speech of a right hon. friend of his, referring to this point, had been grossly misrepresented, and had not a little contributed to foster this delusion, which was calculatedgion they professed. The establishment to do much mischief, by instilling the flattery of passion, and strengthening prejudices of the most injúrious character. If, indeed, the penal code had not been miti. gated, some excuse might be given for the use of the term: but it was altogether indefensible under existing circumstances. It had been argued on many occasions, that as these restrictions affecting the roman catholics were not included in the bill of rights, they could not be considered a essential to the existence of the constitution, but the great men of that day failed not to express their sentiments on that head in many other legislative enactments. Here the hon. member entered into an examination of the principles of the several laws affecting the Roman cathoJies, to prove how essential they were considered at the period of their enactment to › the safety and even the existence of the constitution. For this uniformity of action in so many laws, and for such a continged series of years, some strong causes must have existed. No cause of apprehension could be more certainly defined than the alarming strides which a religious body of the catholic church had been discovered to make about the latter end of the sixteenth century. This society, denominated jesuits, devoted entirely to the gratuitous service of the papal power in any or all parts of the globe, where the interest of that power might possibly be concerned, consisted of various branches, organised, affiliated, and subject to generals of known prudence, learning, and zeal. The operations of this aggregate body shortly assumed such important features, that the arbitrary sovereigns of those days trembled on their thrones at their influence, and some were unfortunate enough to experience that this branch of the priesthood bad actually become their masters. Some gave themselves up implicitly to their do mination, others were hardy enough to contend with these reverend politicians, and in some instances paid for their temerity by their crowns and their lives. This order becoming each year more distinct and independent of the papal power, at length became the astonishment of Europe, and even the Western world. The monarchs of that day found an authority esta

blished over them, which they felt unable to counteract or control. The terror of the monarchs of that day occasioned its overthrow and suppression. It will be asked, what were the extraordinary causes of this arbitrary dominion which they had thus exercised over the subjects and sovereigns of Europe? It was the dominion or ascendancy obtained by an ambitious society over the weak and préjudiced minds of a people rendered subject to the influence of fear, prejudice, and passion, by the instrumentality of the very reli of doiuinion of this description, extending Its influence over the human mind, by the agency of almost preternatural means, was a circumstance which ought to occasion an apprehension in the minds of the British parliament, that the talents for persuasion, the powerful means of exciting those persons professing the catholic religion to aetion or endurance, which the catholic clergy are thus proved to possess, are the most dangerous part of the tenets of the catholic religion, in a political point of view.The power of excommunicating the individuals of their congregations, was the most dangerous part of their tenets. It held their congregations in a state of complete vassalage. Of the truth of the assertion, he could adduce numerous instances. One he should mention, which was the case of an unfortunate woman, professing the catholic religion, who, through the terror excited in her mind by the threat of excommunication, owing to an informality in the performance of the ceremony of her marriage, had been deprived of a Husband and her children of a father. thus the strongest ties of relationship and fidelity, known either in law or in nature, were instantly snapped asunder by the terror of ecclesiastical censures, what might not be supposed to be their power and efficacy when exerted against opinions or persons supposed to be strangers to their principles and enemies to their establishment? In fact, such religious prejudices and such religious terrors were incompa tible with moral feeling altogether. This mistaken religious zeal was the vital enemy of all feelings of morality-The grand object of all their dogmas, their ritual, sacraments, forms, and ceremonies, was the extension of the power of that church which from the earliest period of its history had laboured by every possible means to render itself supreme. He alluded to a publication of Dr. Delahogue, catholic professer of theology, which had been published for the instruction of the young stu dents destined for the church, and in which the learned professor had laid it down as'a principle that allschismatics (protestants, therefore, as well as others,) were as subs ject to the authority and jurisdiction of the catholic authorities, as the regular

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