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compliance on my part with the orders 1 to be your lordship's obedient humble of the propaganda." Saturday was the servant, . .. P.G......" 26th day after I had solicited io bę nade Spanish Place, April 24th,* 1817.” 1 acquainted with your lordship's plea-' *" Right Rev. Dr. F." sutë. I cannot imagine to what your The public will see how materially fördship's objection particularly refers the colour of the transactions rebut as I have no reason for ctioging to ferred to is beightened by the supor affectionating that particular form of pression of all mention of the above apology, if I can accept the one which Vour lordship has taken the trouble to

letters, and may be induced 10 suisden. I shall readily' adopt it, and sub-pend its judgment until a detailed Atitute it for the other being my sin history of the whole affair, already cete wish to be reconciled, and to suize in a state of preparation, shall be any opportunity of testifying to your published. lordship my humble submission and

Ab uno disce omnes.” profousa respect. I have the honour V-re-street, May 7th, 1817.

1 * Delivered at a quarter after three, P. M.



being done,


HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 9, 1817.

and therefore, the house must legislate to • Mr. GRATTAN rose, and moved that the the best of its judgment, with a view to the petition of the Roman catholics of Ireland, ultimate satisfaction of one party, and the which was presented to the house of com- | immediate relief of another.--I have read mops on the 26th of April, 1916," be read the report, which my learned and most It was read accordingly.'

useful friend (şir J. C. Hippisley), has The honourable Mr. Elliott moved, that presented to the house, which has clearly the petition of the Roman catholics of Eng-shewn you, that, in all the great coone land, which was presented to the house on tries in Europe, there are a civil and mili, the 21st of May, 1816, be read. This tary toleration, incorporation and qualifi

çation for all religious sects—that tbere , Mr. GRATTAN then rose, and said exists a connection between the clergy and “ Having been applied to by the Roman the government, so as to preclude the daocatholics of Ireland to bring their case ger of foreign intluepce-and that England under the consideration of the house, I is almost the only country where such an shall now proceed to discharge the duty I arrangement has not yet been made. I bave undertaken. But, sir, it is not my | beg to observe, that there is now every intention at present to go into this import: reason to hope-that there is no reason to ånt question. I shall entreat the indul- doubt--but that securities may be had, and gence of the house to hear ny sentiments such securities as the house will perhaps fully by way of reply. Uvon á question think desirable. There may be domestic of this sort, which bas been debale in nomination-there may be a veto-there this house so often, it'would be monstrous may be both !--Now you may command presnmption in me to expect to be heard your own securities and therefore, let twice in the course of one night ; I shall, not gentlemen say, " We cannot accede to therefore, request the indulgence of the Catholic Emancipation, because we have House for my reply-and shall now trouble no securities.' The question is, will you géotler,en but for a very few minutes. endanger the safety of your own church, The 'resolution I intend to move is for a in order to exclude the catholics from the committee to take the laws affecting the constitution 1-You now have securities Roman catholics into consideration. It is both for church and state, at your comthe same motion which was carried in mand. If you exclude the catholics-if 1813-ayd does nothing more than pledge you keep from them civil and military the house to examine the penal laws, with rights-will you not say, that you will era view to relieve the catholics—to give clude the protestant church and the proevery security to the protestant establish-testaut settlement from security? That is ment-and, ultimately, to impart satisfac- to declare, that you will prefer to the sea tion to all orders of men in the empire. curities which your fellon subjects offer

I say ultimate satisfaction--because, in and which bave so often been represented such a question as this, the hope of giving as necessary to the safety of the church and immediate satisfaction to every order of state-a monopoly-the monopoly of men, is a matter of utter impossibility ; ) power the monopoly of seats is parlia. ment-the monopoly of civil and military i curity of the united kingdom, the stability offices. Is it not to say, that you will pre of the protestant establishment, and the fer this power, not to the freedom of your general satisfaction and concord of all Ronian catholic fellow-subjects, but to the classes of his majesty's subjects." security of the protestant church? So I" I beg," continued Mr. Grattan," jest that it will appear, that, having called for to say this-that my idea is not, in 498 securities, in order to justify you in grant degree whatever, to put it out of the power ing liberty, you now refuse them, when of this house, to insist on full satisfaction offered, and exclude the catholics, in order relative to the proffered securities, before to prevent them from participating in that they proceed to legislate; so that potbiog power which they were expected to share. thai shall occur in the house, either now, I beg leave to say,that the present question or at any future period, shall be considered is oot about the means by which securities operative, unless the house be perfectly may be effected. I will not debate that satisfied that the securities offered will in, point. The question is whether any secu- sure the safety of the protestant church and rities whatever will be received? Let me state." tell you why. There is a communication The motion, being seconded by Mr. W. betwen the pope and the catholic clergy- Elliott, was then put from the chair. 35 which must end either ip incorporation Mni Leslie FOSTER observed that with the see of Rome, or connection with the right houi, gentleman had said that the the government of England-and, if the question of the catholic claims was now latter be refused, it will be dangerous to submitted to the consideration of the house the safety of Eagland. You will have the under circumstances in some respects matecatholic clergy incorporated with the see rially different from those of any former of Rome-and the catholic laity discorpo. I period. The house would have the goodrated from the people of England.-I ness to recollect that in the last session two shall go into a committee'to move the re- petitions had been presented to thein from peal of the laws that disqualify the catho- different parties of Irish catholics"; thë "Jics from civil, military, and naval power, one from the catholic' aristocracy,, pro, subject to such arrangements as may be fessing to accede to any securities which judged necessary for the safety of the pro- the house inight please to require; the testapt religion, the act of settlement, and other far more nuinerously signed, by all the government of Great Britain--that is the catholic clergy, and declared to be exto say, subject to such provisions as you pressive of the feeling of the whole cathowill feel necessary for the security of your lic population ; expressing an unqualified church and state.-That, if you choose opinion on the subject of the restrictions, to adopt the resolution, you may shew to branding the other petition as mischief, the world, that you have ceased to be the land denouncing with anathemas those wbo only great country in Europe that withheld signed it as worse than orangemen." It those rights—but that you are ready to was well known that it was the terms of give franchises that you are willing to | the concession that had raised all the fergrant a participation in the benefits of I ment in Ireland, consequent on their diss your constitution--to your catholic fellow. cussion.' It was perfectly well knowa subjects. This will acquit you with regard that the veto, which excited that fermept, to your having a just idea of the principles was not in the opinion of the petitioners of liberty- whilst the securities you will the basis on wbich their claiins ought to be receive, will effectually protect your civil granted. And yet the right honourable and religious privileges. Give to the ca gentleman had considered all the terms to tholics all they require, taking care that be still open, and had said that the ca. your church is properly protected. This tholics were in a peculiar humour to* is the principle on which the yuestion will make concessions, But did he not know stand, and the point which you must ulti that the utmost length which the catho malely concede. With respect to safe-, lics were ready to go, was confined to the guards, I think it is clear, that there is no single basis of doinestic nomination of man, when he procures rights, which he the vetó they would not hear mention, considers inestimable, that ought not to and the right hon. gentleman well knew give you those securities, which, while

that they would much rather remain in their they do not trench on the catholic church, present condition than comply with such a afford strength and safety to the protestant | demand. He (Mr. Foster) was justified religion. I shall now

therefore in saying, that all the means of 5* That this house do resolve itself into conciliation to which the catholics would a committee of the whole house, to take consent were confined to the single priointo its most serious consideration the stateciple of domestic nomination. He would of the laws affecting his majesty's Roman now proceed to explain what, in his view catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ire- of the case, appeared to be the utter inland with a view to such a final and con- l efficiency of such a restriction, if restric. ciliatory adjustment of them, as will be tion it should be called. But first be conducive to the peace, strength, and se would 'say 'something on its illusiv dess.

He meant no disrespect to the right hon. | history of papal Rome. The protestants bad seen gentleman by using this expression, which these bishops assemble annually for the ostensible was applicable, not to him, but to the na:

purpose of regulating a college of education, but ture and character of this úroposal. Do | Dot separating until they had accomplisbed the mestic nomination was no new thing. It

more important object of communicatiog with each offered nothing that was not customary, or

other on their general affairs. The protestants

had since seen them assembling in regular synods that had not been so for ages. It was ma

for simii ar purposes. When the protestant came terial however, that the house should be to look at the practical consequeuces of all this, correctly informed of the present manner be naturally expected that after the events of the of dominating catholic bishops in Ireland, last thirty years after the mitigation of that penal in order that they might judge of the value | code, which had been so grievously fell--after the of this offer. He had been told on very communication of so much civil liberty, (amounting good authority, that when an Irish Roman to a participation in almost every advantage except catholic bishop died, a committee of catho

that of a share in the legislature)-after the erection ļic bishops (how they were selected he

of a college for the education of catholic priests;

after all this the protestant paturally expected knew not) was called together which, com

to witness some gratitude in returv, some corresmittee recommended to the see of Rome a

ponding veneration for the government and laws, successor. It was so much a matter of

some attachment to the protestant clergy and course that the individual so recoin mended laitv. If such was the expectation of the should be appointed by the pope, that only protestant, miserably had be heen disappointed. one or two instances had occurred of any difficulty iu too many instances a persoual proscription bac in the appointment. The committee invariably beeu established against those who professed the recommended the coadjutor of the deceased protestant faiti). The protestant tradesmian had bishop, who was appointed by him in his life time; been deprived of his Roman catholic customers. so that it was evident the appointment of the The protestant farmer had been mepaced, his has bishops was nothing more por less than a devise, bitation destroyed, himself way-laid at night, and and was in no degiee dependent on the see of treated with brutal outrage, until be either sought Rome. He had heard that it was proposed to peace in emigration, or bouglit it by his conversion, inake some change in the mode of appointment, Added to this had been the system of intermarrying which was in future to be uubiassed by the pre protestants with catholic families, producing in many decessor. To the Roman catbolics that might be instances a change of faith in the protestapt huså material alteration, but to the protestants it was bands, and almost invariably ending in the catholiguite indifferent. One mode was just as much cism of the children. The protestant saw all this; he domestic nomination as the other. The matter saw the number of protestants diminishing; he then stood thus, that in cousideration of the pro saw the property of protestants decreasing : ho testants revoking the penal code, so much affecting saw the interests of the Roman Catholic clergy catholics, removing from them all the enactments pursued with indetatigable activity; and he was by' which they had been so severely oppressed, then told to be of good cheer, for he had nothing and admitting them to an equal participation of all to apprehend. Such then was the nature, and civil privileges, they were to obtain from the catho such had been the evils resulting from domestic lics in return, nothing, but that matters should nomination, which so far from offering any secustand exactly as they were ! The important con

rity was pregoant with the greatest dangers. cession offered by the catholics was, that in times There was therefore no modification of such a to come Irish catholic bishops should be nominated proposal which could be made in the committee, as they had been in times past! If this was which couid, in his opinion, dimiuish in the smallreally the state of the case, if nothing new, as he est degree, its vusatisfactory character. No had shown, had been offered, was he not fully modificatinn ou such a principle was any answer to justified in characterising that offer as illusory? the just apprehensions which the protestants felt He would proceed to inquire into the nature of on the subject. It was necessary he should now tbat dauger wbich required restrictions as a defence

say sometbing on the subject of the veto. Ho against it. Jt was impossible for the protestants in would not go much, at length into this question, Ireland to view without apprehension, a population because the right honourable gentleman opposite of 4 millions, depending for their education, habits, could not gravely maintain that it was open to the morals,principles, and attachment to the government consideration of the committee, knowing perfectly olc ritain, on a numerous body of ecclesiastics, as he did, that the concession of it was directly whom the fatal and mistaken policy of our ancestors opposite to all the sentiments of the great catholic had treated in such a manner that it was incon. body in Ireland.' The veto was considered by sistent with human nature that that body should some as calculated to afford some security against be otherwise than alienated from that government. any apprehended danger, and to allay in some We might lament that which was passed, but we degree that which, was called British prejudices could pot annul it. The protestants had seen that But he asked of what real service couid it be to numerous body so lately proscribed, even for the any Irish protestant? It would not satisfy the discopery of any of whom a reward had been catholics, nor afford any security to the protest. offered, who were studiously rendered a severed ants. The veto would give the crown the power order, Devertheless exercising more power over of rejecting any person who might be nominated the population and feelings of Ireland, than the an Irish catholic bishop. But one misfortune legislative or executive authority had ever been l attendant on the measure was, that it would able to obtaip. The protestants had seen this order have no effect on the person so vominated after submitting to a small body of bishops; aud they that nominatiou had been confirmed by the crown. had seen those catholic bishops acting with au Some obscure individual, of whom the crown unanimity and a perseverance in furtherance of could know nothing, might be presented for the their common interest, opparalleled, except in the copfirmation of the crowa,, and after that con:

formation after having passed through the ordeal | subject of the veto, except indeed that they per.

might assist in occasioving all that tnischief haps regarded it with still deeper detestation? which the veto was intended to preveut.' 'The ! It was impossible, therefore, to consider the veto only practical security desired by any protestant | as a basis for the proposition to the house to re. of Irelapd who was disposed to consent to the solve itself into a committee on the catho entire emancipation of the catholics was, some He had now endeavoured to show that neither measure that might increase the "attachment of the | domestic nomination, nor the veto, was such a great mass of the Irish population to British con proposition as ought to induce the house to go into pexioo, and their respect for the British religion the committee moved for by the right honourable --(he did not mean such a respect as would pro gentleman. He thought he might also assume that duce proselytism, but toleration). That was the the house was not called upon to go into odiy real security ; and those would be the ouly mittee blindly to grope for principles and expésalutary measures by which that security could be, I dients. It was incumbent on those who proposed accomplished. To him it was evident that the to effect so important a change in the constitution, only expectation of achieving this important object to point out the geveral principles which might was through the operating influence of the Romau probably satisfy the British protestants, the Irish catholic clergy upon the people. But it was ex. protestants, and the Irish Roman catholics. It tremely unnecessary for him to dilate on the veto. had on a former occasion been said to the house, Conciliation was what was wanted, and no fact “Give us a committee, and then you will see we could be better established than that no proposi. will fod securities.” The experiment had been tion could be imagined more hateful to the catho. tried. The house had gone into a committee to see lics of Ireland of every description than the veto. what could be done. That committee had groped The discussion of it, instead of tranquillizing Ire. I about for principles. The mountain had laboured, land, could only have the opposite effect, aud and brought forth the veto, an object at once of promote disturbance. It was a curious fact, that protestant ridicule, and of catholic abhorrence. when that house in a committee expressed an He repeated, that before the house could be fairly opinion favourable to the catholic claims with the called upon to go into a committee, it was iucumrestriction of the veto, # synod of Roman catholic bent on the advocates for that committee to hold bishops was holding in Dublin; and on the very forth some proposition which there was ground for day which brought to Ireland the news of the vote I believing might. by discussiou, ultimately satisfy of the house of commons, that synod of catholic the reasonable expectations of both protest. busnops published a declaration that they would ants and catholics. L'oless that were done, cheerfully lay down their lives rather than submit nothing could be effected. It was evident to hire, to such an interference in spiritual matters." Iu from all he had seen and read, both of past and what a situation would the country have been, had present times, that no such principle could now be that proposition of the committee been carried discovered. What was there that could be disco. into effect? If parliament had given all, and had | vered? what was there that could even be dreamt afterwards endeavoured to carry the accompanying of, which could at all accord with the views of the condition of security into effeci, he believed there protestants, which would not meet with the most was no hopourable gentleman who could be of opi absolute resistance from the catholics? At present, nion that the tranquillity of Ireland could have therefore, there could be no hope of that adjustbeen maintained by enforcing it with so extensive ment which the motion flattered the country with; a martyrdom as the declaration of the synod but as the time might come when the catholics threatened to render in that case necessary. If would view the subject differeutly, it might not such was the opinion of the catholic clergy with now be improper to consider if there was any respect to the veto, that of the laity went hand in other basis on which the concession could be hand with it. A all subsequeut meetings, the founded if there were any other restrictions which catholics vied with each other in finding terms the catholics would accept. Ou this subject he sufficiently expressive of their abhorrence of the appealed to the universal sentiment of christenproposition. He held in his hand some resolutions dom. The house might collect the invariable agreed to at a meeting in the county of Kilkenny, opinions of all Europe on this head from the report which he selected not by any means as the strongest which lay on their table. It was scarcely vecessary that could be found, but as affording a fair sample for him to say, that he adverted to the usefal of the whole. These resolutions termed the veto | labours of the honourable baronet opposite, (sir "ja penal law, and a persecution, wlrich, if persisted J. C. Hippisley). He would merely give a general in, would shake the British empire to its fopoda. outline of that report, leaviog the details to be tions."-in the following year, the advocates of filled up, as he had no doubt they would be, by ti & the veto in this country, imagined that they had honourable baronet himself. It was a curiou 3 found a powerful aid in the vicegerent of fact, that there were but two states in Europe-the pope. But the catholic clergy held the re. Prussia aod Great Britain-in which catholic script in horror. The catholic clergy of the arch: bishops were suffered to exist at all. The example diocese of Dublin expressed their unqualified dis I of Prussia, therefore, was very material as bearing sent from it, and spoke of it as calculated to excite on this question, la Prussiz-not merely in Silesia, the disgust and abhorrence of every catholic. The which was catholic, but in Prussia- there were bishop of Cloyne treated it with the utmost indig. several catholic bishops. The king, however, pation, termed it detestable, and declared that nominated to all the bislopricks. What was still were he to stand alone, while he had breath in more surprising was, that there was pot a catholic his body he would resist the authority of such a priest in the Prussiari dominions who was not document. He put it to the right honourable geu appointed by the protestant government. There tleman opposite, and the other friends of catholic was no synod allowed to be held until its object emancipation, to say, if they believed that since was ascertained, aud until it had received the the occurrence of the circumstances to which he express sanction of the state. No communication had just adverted, the opinion of the catholic I was allowed with the see of Rome but siergy, or of the catholic laicy, had changed on the the bureau of the protestant minister of state and If there was any proposition to put the Irish | was punished by deprivation and imprisonment in catholics on this footing, even if he were wild | Africa.Even the attoruies, who were the parties enough to suppose that they mi be induced to 1. in such a transaction, were punished by teu year's accede to it, it would by no meaps be his wish imprisonment in Africa. The free communication that they should do so. But there were degrees i with Rome, which the catholic clergy were to of interference and restriction. Some securities of enjoy in this country, while the laity possessed all a similar nature might be devised to which no civil rights, was a perfectly novel experiment. catholic objection could be made. He had heard Indeed, all countries in Europe, catholic as well as it said by some who sought for a distinction be. protestant, had carefully shut out the doctrines tween the catholic clergyman jo Ireland aud the propagated by the court of Rome for its ows power catholic clergymau in Prussia, as one part dwelt and interest. These tenets, kuowa by the pame of on the fact, that in Prussia a stipeud was audexed Tiaosalpine doctrines, were excluded from all to all ecclesiastical functions, protestant or catholic. Europe, excepting two spots-che one was the Of this distinction he could get rid in two ways. Ist Valican, the other the college of Maynooth. Tno He was decidedly for allowing the catholic clergy reasou these doctrincs had obtained footing in the in Ireland stipeuds, convinced as he was that no British dominiobs was, that iustead of regulating possible system of countercueck, such as that in the catholic religion, which was possible, we had Prussia, could be otherwise established in Ireland. attempted to exterioate it, which was impossible. But the second and more substantial answer was, As to the dogmas of the Roman church, he did not that it was impossible, if the interference of the attach so much importance to them as many king of Prussia in the appoiutment of catholic 1 persons.He had calculated much on the effect bishops interfered with the spiritual authority of wbich the illumination of the age would have on the pope, that the pope could ever have consented the catholic hierarcliy; but circumstances had to it. It was said he gave aliquod spirituale pro occurred which had driven him from that idea. aliquo temporali ; but the fact of his havilig The order of the jesuits had been re-established, acquiesced iu such a bargain, was a proof that he which had before been drived from every kingdom ouly gave up a temporal privilege. As to the other of Europe with the detestation of the human race. protestant states in Europe, Holland, Denmark, There was one point in which he had given the sea Sweden, &c. no Roman catholic bishops were of Rome some credit-its tacit permission of the permitted to reside, and the inferior cathoiic clergy circulation of the holy scriptures, by that noble were probibited from holding any intercourse willa society wbicb, like the angel in the Re the see of Rome, except through the respective

bore the Gospel through the world. This appro. governments of these states. If, therefore, the bation he was now unfortunately compelled to parliament consented to grant the full partici. Tetract. The pope had addi essed a bull to the patiou of all civil rights on the catholics, it would primate of Poland, which coutained these words: te to try an experiment which no state in Europe “ We bave been truly shocked at this most had ever made ; and when the right honourable crafty device, by which the very foundations of gentlemau (Mr. Grattan) spoke of this country as religion are undermined; and having, because of the ovly intolerant state in Europe, he should the great importance of the subject, conferred in have also added. that if it adopted the course council with our venerable brethren, the cardinals Dow recommended, it would be the only protestaut of the holy roman church, we have, with the ut. government wlich ever veutured such a trial. In most care aud attention, deliberated upon the Russia, the catholic bishop was appointed by measures proper to be adopted by our pontifical die emperor; but it was said in a work of great authority, in order to remedy and abolish the authority on the question (the Edinburgh Review) pestilence as far as possible. To the mean time, we that tirere was.ess difference between the Greek hesruly congratulate you, venerable brother, and church and the catholics than between the we commend you again and again in the Lord, as catholics aod protestants. This was not the fact. I it is fit we should, upon the singular seal you have as the Greek church differed from the Romish in displayed under circumstances so, dangerous to all the points at issue between the latter and the christianity, in having deuounced to the apostolie westero reformers, and besides esteemed the pope see, this dcfilement of the faith, so imminently and his adherents madnien, schismatics. But dangerous to souls, And although we perceive notwithstanding this, when the empress of Russia that it is not at all necessary to excite bim to acļi. proposed to give a stipend to the catholic arch. | vily who is making haste, since of your own accord bishop of Mohilew, and to appoint that officer, the you have already showu au ardent desire to detect proposal was gladly accepted by the see of Rome. and overthrow the impious machinatious of these A regulation which the pope could accept under a | iunovators; yet, in conformity with our office, we Greek emperor, he could not object to under a pro- again and agaio exhort you, that whatever you can testant kiug of Great Britain, on any religious achieve by power, provide for by couosel, or effect principie; and if the objection was merely political, by authority, you will daily execute with the ut.

at accouut be more disposed to most earpestoess, placing yourself as a wall for the iusist on the enforcernent. Thus touch as to the House of Israel." states which dissented from the church of Rone. These sentiments from a modern pope did not As to the catholic states, there were bone, great or fall short of any thing which the reformers had ob. small, enlightened or ignoraut, which permitted jected to the cacholics in their worst times. , There

by communication between their clergy and the was another document he should refer to, which he sée of Rome, except with their own privity; and thought was entitled to some weight. It was iv all states, with some inconsiderable exceptious, work of a Catholic clergymau in this country, Mr. in the case of "a few 'sees in Naples, the bishops Gandolphy, but the circumstances under which it were appointed by the sovereigos of the respective was published gave is importance. It had been coubtries and not by the pope. In Spain, where printed in this country, and professed to contain a it would be expected there would be the most clear exposition of the catholie religion. It was superstitious attachment to the see of Rome, auy 1 seen by Dr. Poynter, and by, him suppressed as communication between a čiergynau "and that see uufii for çirculation, Mr. Gandolphy submitted,

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