ceipt of the revenue for the year 1810. With regard to the Convoy duty, that must necessarily cease on the re-establishment of peace; but it did not follow that a considerable part of what was now raised under the head of Convoy duty might not then be continued under the denomination of Customs. There was no reason, then, for the despondency manifested by the hon. gentlemen, but this he did not state in opposition to the proposition that economy was desirable; while the burdens continued to be so great as they were, in his opinion, the house required no other incitement to alleviate them by every means in their power. Mr. Martin, in explanation, stated, that he quoted from the returns laid before the house as to the funds to be relied upon in the event of peace. There was at least one part of the war taxes, namely, the Convoy duty, which must inevitably cease. Lord Folkestone considered that a fallacy had run through the whole of the statement made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Huskisson) as in his calculations he had not stated the produce of new taxes laid on in 1808 to the amount of 1,700,000l. The noble lord was going on to point out this supposed inaccuracy, when Mr. Huskisson rose and corrected his misconception of the matter. He shewed, He shewed, that what the noble lord intended to consider as new taxes, were only a new arrangement of the assessed taxes already in existence. Mr. Tierney said, he did not expect the debate would have taken the turn which it appeared to have done. He thought, however, his hon. friend who brought forward these Resolutions, had acted very right in drawing the attention of the house to economy. As, however, the hon. gent, who had just sat down had gone into figures on the occasion, he would beg leave to state a few similar facts from a paper he happened accidentally to have in his pocket, but which he never had an idea till that moment of mentioning on the present occasion. He calculated that, upon the arrival of peace, if it were to take place to-morrow, the amount of the public expenditure for the support of the army, navy, and miscellaneous charges, would, at least, be equal to 48 millions, to which add the interest upon exchequer bills, which would make it exceed 49 millions, and he would ask, how was this sum to be provided? The whole of the revenue, applicable to a peace establishment, VOL. XIV. he estimated at about 38,500,000l., and the deficit must, of course, be supplied either by new taxes, or by loans. According to his estimate the deficit would exceed 11 millions, but even according to the statement of his hon. friend, it would amount to more than 8 millions. This deficit would be to be met either by continuing the war taxes, or by a loan, or by raising new taxes; unless recourse were had to the Property Tax. Even suppose the other war taxes to be made perpetual, there must be a deficit of many millions, which must, if peace were to take place to-morrow, be provided for; and we must either make the property-tax perpetual, to the amount of five per cent. on income, or else have recourse to a loan. This statement be made with a view to demonstrate the propriety of attending to the principle of his hon. friend's Resolution. Lord Milton thought that the discussion was taking a turn entirely foreign from the subject of the Third Report upon Offices, and therefore suggested the propriety of proceeding to the matter in question. There would be no end to the debate, were the finances of the country to be made the subject, when the question was simply as to the necessity of economy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer coincided in opinion with the noble lord, yet thought it but fair to say that his hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) had not introduced the subject originally, but had only risen to correct the misstatements which had been made on the other side. As the hon. gent. (Mr. Martin) had declared his preference for his (Mr. Perceval's) first Resolution in opposition to his own, he could wish that instead of putting the committee to the necessity of previously negativing that Resolution, he would withdraw it, and suffer the other to be put in its stead. With respect to what the hon. gent. had said about comparing and contrasting the two strings of Resolutions seriatim, he could scarcely suppose that necessary, as his Resolutions were merely a new arrangement of those of the hon. gent. Mr. Martin withdrew his first Resolution, and that proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was put from the chair and agreed to. The following was the Resolution: "That the utmost attention to economy in all the branches of Public Expenditure which is consistent with the interests of the Public Service, is at all times the duty of this House." Mr. Rose requested the attention of the 3 K The number of employments was not affected by these measures, as three new Commissioners for Auditing were appointed in addition to the two Comptrollers of Army Accounts. ........... Ann. In 1785-Were suppressed as they should fall in, Patent Offices in the Customs, which were actual Sinecures, and usually given to private friends, not being consider- No. Value ed as local patronage. 196 £.42,000 The offices were not abolished by Law till 1798, by the 38 Geo. 3, ch. 86, but no appointments were made to them (except in two special cases) from 1781; and so early as 1791 there had 38 fallen in of the annual value of 10,600% a year. In 1788-An arrangement was made by the Treasury which reduced the Officers of the Excise in their number which saving was effected in the In 1799-The Offices of Auditors of was By this arrangement the Treasury lost the appointment of 459 offices, the new ones being in the gift of of the Excise. RECAPITULATION. 765... 12,345 S.. 5,500 261 26,932 -32,741 Annal Value. ..400 400 278 71,125 Tota' saving by the three Offices 33,141 (a) The Auditor of the Exchequer, nett profit in 1782 was 19,8807. a year; the Tellers present profits are three times the amount of that year. The Auditors fees would therefore have been now .......... -The four Tellers full fees would now have been Deduct Auditor's present Salary £4,000 1782-3-Under the Exchequer regu lating Act, by abolition and reduc tions 1785-By the Auditor's Act, two of fices for life of great value, the reversions of which were both open. were abolished; but a new board was established (in which not one political friend was placed) the number of officers remained the same, but a saving was effected... 1785-Patent Offices in the Customs 196 42,000 1799--Auditors of the Land Revenue, Sinecure Employments, the Reversion of one open 1799-Suppression of the Salt Board 33,141 5,500 4 66,000 This statement is made to 1799, because it has been in print many years, with Mr. Rose's name to it, shewing the particulars in each department, and has never been called in question. There should however be opposed to these savings some new establishments created subsequent to Mr. Pitt's coming first into office. The Board of Controul, with salaries to the amount of 6,000l. or 7,000l. a year, defrayed by the East India Company. The Committee of Trade; no salaries except to the clerks who were paid under the board suppressed. The Transport Board, against which is to be set the suppression of the Sick and Hurt Board, and the commission occasionally paid to persons employed from favour, to take up ships in the former war; and the naval meinbers of this Board, having no other duties to attend to, the advantages derived from their attention very much exceed the expence of the establishment. The Barrack Board and the officers under it, against which is to be set the savings aris ing from keeping the men and horses in barracks, instead of at quarters in public houses; much more than equal to the annual expence of this establishment, as appears by a Paper in the Appendix to a Pamphlet published by Mr. Rose on Finance, in 1799. Several Commissioners added for the examination of Public Accounts at home and in the West Indies; which may amount in the whole to 20,000l. a year. And some smaller employments rendered necessary in different depart ments. It is however to be observed, that the offices abolished were chiefly sinecures, disposed of as mere favours, and useful only as sources of influence; whereas the offices created have all been required by the actual necessities of the public service; they are all efficient, and cannot therefore be given to the same class of persons who filled those which have been abolished: of course, the influence derived from them is essentially different both in its degree and in its direction. Of the former, influence was almost the direct object: of the latter, it is only the collateral consequence. Thus far there has been no reference to any thing but positive savings arising from the suppression of employments. Other measures, however, of higher importance than these were adopted both with respect to public economy and to influence. 1st, Loan and Lotteries. 2d, Contracts and Commission Business. 3d, Renewals of Crown Leases. 1st, Loans.-The influence derived from these extended infinitely beyond the six or eight persons to whom they were given on such advantageous terms as were privately settled between the minister and those persons; as each of those had on his list a considerable number of the friends of the minister; or the names of the latter were sent to the bank as original subscribers. In one year of the American war the loan was at a premium of 107, per cent. when the list was sent to the bank. Suppose the saving by the mode adopted for the first time by Mr. Pitt, to be 1797, the amount was 32,000,0001.) the saving would be 2d, Of the sums which would have been issued to Contractors under the former system, it is very difficult to make an accurate computation; but it would be a low estimate to state it at 1,500,000 and we can hardly suppore, when the Contracts were given as matter of mere favor without competition, that the profit was so low as 51. per cent. Probably thirty persons, making purchases at 150,000. each, at a profit of 2,500l. These were chiefly members of parliament, till the Disabling Act in 1782; after that they were still given as mere favour. 3d. Renewals of Crown Leases has already under the new system, produced an increase of In addition to these heads under which there was a mixture of influence and prodigality, an important article respecting the latter is to be added. In former wars certain parts of the naval services were paid in navy bills, which from the middle of 1779 to 1785 were at a discount of from 107. and 117. to 13. per.cent. The non interest bills at 18. and 191. Those parts of the naval expenditure have amounted in the present war to upwards of 10,000,000%. annually, which are now paid in 90 day bills at par, received as ready money, by which there is a saving of more than Secret service Money to the Treasury was on an average of four years to 1725, 83.0001. a year; in seven years to 1740, was 65,000l.; in the nine first years of this reign was 54,000l.; now limited to 10,0007 : Let the saving however, be estimated at only And exclusive of the reduced influence £. 360,000 of the Crown here stated; there were eighteen Parliamentary offices among those abolished in 1782. 75,000 +59,611 1,000,000 1,494,611 Of the above, two or three are in decided opposition to administration; and if the remaining 51 or 52 may be supposed to be influenced by their employments, it is not less likely that a number of gentlemen in opposition are influenced by their desire for office. He had heard a great deal of good times, but in this respect they were much lessened. He hoped gentlemen would not suppose what he had stated was for the purpose of checking the ardour of gentlemen in bringing forward resolutions like the present; he had no such intention; in what he had done he was actuated solely by what he thought his duty at the present moment. As to the Resolutions, as far as they went they appeared to him to be unexceptionable. Mr. Creevey was at a loss how to reconcile the Report which he held in his hand with the high panegyric which the right hon. gentleman had thought proper to pronounce upon his deceased friend. The right hon. gent. had gone so far back as the year 1713, when he came to treat of Pensions. If he had looked at later periods, he would have found that they had increased very much since the beginning 45,000 of the present reign. From the Report under consideration it appeared, that the £.1,539,000 amount of the Pension List had been most this was a part of the case which the right enormously increased by Mr. Pitt. But hon. gent. had felt it convenient to overlook, although the subject of pensions was the first topic that offered itself in the Re Here, then, is a saving of more than a million and a half, in addition to the 233,000l. before stated; without reckoning any thing for the saving in Ordnance Debentures, or the profits on the Lottery in time of peace, or indeed in war, by which the public now derives a large profit. It is also to be observed that the Lottery tickets, like the loan, were privately disposed of to the friends of the minister. The saving upon the whole may truly be stated at more than 2,000,000l. after deducting the 66,000l. saved under Mr. Burke's act and Treasury proceedings in consequence of it, and the 60,0001. under the Exchequer regulating act. port. There was also a strong fact which the right hon. gent. happened to forget, but he would call it to his recollection. The right hon. gent. would, perhaps, remember when Mr. Pitt, and himself, induced that house to acquiesce in the grant of 9,000l. a year to the duke of Gloucester, from the public purse, upon the allegation that the produce of the 44 per cent. duties, upon which that sum had been previously charged, was inadequate to payit. By this grant the public lost 105,000l., yet soon 400,000 a year; the leases till 1794 were grant- after it was made, the "inadequate fund" + This will go on increasing to more than ed at low reserved rents and small fines; now they are on the sworn value. was found a resource sufficient to provide for several of Mr. Pitt's friends and relations. Indeed, but a short time afterwards pensions were charged upon it of 1,5007. a year for Mr. Long; 1,2001. a year for Mr. Huskisson; of 6 or 700l. a year to each of Mr. Pitt's nieces, together with an allowance to lady Chatham; and no less than 1,500l. a year to lady Grenville. With this fact, and several others of a similar nature in his recollection, he could not subscribe to the justice of the right hon. gent.'s panegyric upon Mr. Pitt's solicitude to curtail the public expenditure, and to sacrifice to that object either personal connection or ministerial influence. Mr. Rose vindicated the conduct of his right hon. friend in the transaction alluded to, and averred that the 4 per cent. duties were inadequate to furnish the allowance granted to the duke of Gloucester at the time the proposition complained of by the hon. gent. was brought before the house. He proved that in the year 1720, independent of the relative value of money, the Pension List was greater than at this moment. He also corrected his statements with respect to the 4 per cent. fund, and shewed the nature of its application, in paying off 172,000l. of debt, after it was released from the payment of the duke of Gloucester's annuity. As to the provision which his right hon. friend had thought proper to make for his relations, he was sure that the country would justify that, when they considered the merit of a life devoted to their service, and the circumstances under which he died. Mr. Wilberforce thought the poverty in which Mr. Pitt died was very much to his credit; he was a man who practised virtue most, and made the least display of it; he indeed "Did good by stealth, and blush'd to find it fame.” given from this 4 per cent. fund, to many persons, and among the rest to lord Hobart, governor of Jersey. In the reign of George II. it was also applied to such purposes, as from 70 to 80,0001. had been drawn from it in aid of the Civil List, and in the year 1762, a pension of 3,000l. per annum was given to the late lord Chatham. No Attorney or Solicitor General, or Lord Chancellor, since that time, could be named who had not been a party in such grants. It did not come within the spirit of Burke's Act; for Mr. Burke himself expressly stated, in one of his pamphlets, that he had a view only to the Civil List in his regulations, and that he knew of the 44 per cent. fund, but thought it best to leave that as a reward for merit. The hon. gent. had alluded to the annuity granted to the duke of Gloucester in 1786. What did parliament do on that occasion? Did they say such a grant was contrary to Mr. Burke's act? No, it had ever been admitted that that fund was a part of the hereditary revenue, and consequently at the disposal of the crown. The attention of every Committee of Finance was turned to the subject, and they all sanctioned the legality of this application. Mr. Creevey said, it was stated as a part of the public revenue. Mr. Rose was of opinion it was part of the customs. Mr. Creevey stated, that lord Grenville and lord Harrowby (then Mr. Ryder) bad, in the Report of a Finance Committee, reported the 4 per cent. funds as public money. Mr. Rose said, that he could not see, even admitting for a moment the truth of the statement, how it bore upon the ques tion. Sir J. Newport said, that as his hon. Mr. Creevey thought the crown had no fiiend had introduced this subject before title to the revenue arising from the 4 the house, he hoped some gentleman per cent. The question was, what had for Ireland would institute a similar exthe practice been? 20,000l. had been ad-position with respect to that country, for he vanced in aid of the Civil List, which was the first sum ever thus appropriated, in 1791. He wished to know if any law could be pointed out to his notice that he might have overlooked, authorising the crown to give pensions out of that fund. He condemned the giving political pensions from this fund, which ought to be only appropriated to the salaries of government. Mr. Long would by no means admit this principle; it would be found that in the reign of George I. pensions had been In had a statement to make to the committee with regard to the financial arrangements of Ireland, at one time, that would, he apprehended, astonish gentlemen who heard him, and incline them to think that such an exposition would not be unnecessary. the administration of a noble lord who was now a cabinet minister, he meant the Lord Privy Seal (lord Westmoreland), it was enacted by parliament, that until the Pension List establishment for Ireland should be reduced to 80,000/. the grants of pensions |