therefore, ought to be drawn between such | parts and the sea-port towns, where coals could conveniently be procured. When the committee came to consider that part - of the subject, in which he could best introduce a clause to such effect, it was his intention to do so. still has to contend against an advantage which that from the larger one has of 18. & 7d. per gallon; it is impossible, under these circumstances, that the object of the bill without the amendment of his right hon. friend, could be carried into effect, but the committee were called upon by a sense of justice, as well as of interest, to support the amendment; for whenever it became necessary to enact severe laws against the commission of any breach of the law, as in this instance, so severe, that the innocent suffered as well as the guilty, it became the duty of the house, if any system would prevent the commission of the crime, to adopt that system; and the surest and best method of preventing this breach of the laws, was to take away the temptation of committing it, or at least the inducement which the farmers of the country at this moment have to connive at it: they are aware at this moment that the price they get for their corn arises from distillation, in the absence of legal stills; they see, or at least think they see, an advantage in illegal distillation; but if you enable the smaller stills to be set up, they will then have no inducement to connive at these practices, against which we have enacted such a severe law. On these grounds he supported the amendment, as he was convinced, that, without the amendment, the object of the bill could never be carried into effect. Mr. J. Latouche said he agreed with the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, that it was of the greatest importance to have small stills established in the country parts of Ireland, and he would therefore give his support to the amendment of the right honourable baronet, as it was the plain, direct, and he thought the only way of carrying the object into effect of putting an end to illicit distillation. To enable smaller stills to work was an object not only of importance but of necessity, for in consequence of the demand for corn arising from distillation, many tracts of country had been brought into cultivation, and if illegal stills should be put down, and none others established, that demand for corn would cease, and a check would be given to the increased and increasing cultivation of land, and perhaps these lands already re-claimed would be suffered to relapse to their former state of waste. He agreed perfectly with the right hon. gentleman, that from a variety of causes, no large stills of 1,000 or 1,500 gallons would ever be established in the country parts; but he could not agree with him in thinking, that Mr. Bernard stated, that in withdrawing if the amendment proposed was rejected, his motion on the principle of the bill the and if the bounties of sl. and 167. per other night, he did so only with a hope cent. were to remain in favour of the large that the objects he had would be met in stills, that the smaller ones would ever be the committee, and not from being perable to meet them in the market. 167. perfectly satisfied that if the bill passed into cent, bounty was an advantage which no trade could bear, and the fact has already been ascertained, that it was not to be contended against, for when even the bounty of 8. per cent. was taken off the 500 gallon stills, and given to those of 1,000 gallons, the consequence was, that a number of 500 gallon stills were driven out of the trade. Now if 81. per cent. could not be contended against, how could any man think that lol. per cent. could be opposed; but it should also be observed that the owners of small stills in their working, are under disadvantages which add to the expence of manufacture in the spirit, to which those who work larger ones are not liable; these disadvantages amount to nearly 7d. per gallon, which if you will add to the 12d. per gallon bounty, the spirit coming from the smaller a law in its present shape, it must prove insufficient and most injurious, not only to the agricultural interests of Ireland, but to the revenue; we already had some proof of it, for by the right hon. gentleman's bill of last year, stills so small as 200 gallons were allowed to work; he could bring evidence to the bar of the house, of men of experience, now in London, that had given both 200 and 500 gallon stills a fair trial, and who really were anxious to carry on the business in Ireland in that way, and who would declare that it was impossible to carry it on, while so great an advantage as 8 and 16 per cent. was allowed to large stills; it was therefore utterly nugatory in the extreme to talk of allowing small stills to work on such terms, the consequence must be, that illicit stills will be substituted, or the farmer will be suddenly adopt so great an alteration as that proposed by the right hon. baronet. Mr. French said he was surprized to hear the bon. member say that there was no illicit distillery in the county Mayo; he lived within a few miles of that county, and had himself assisted in seizing several illicit stills last year, and he knew the trade was now very flourishing in that quarter. If the hon. member means that there is no illicit trade near Westport, he could understand him, because there was no corn there. There were nothing there but those sort of inaccessible mountains which the hon. member talked of lately as being of such great value in the county of Cavan, for scites on which to establish illegal stills.-As to the amendment of the right hon. baronet, be should certainly vote for it, and nothing could be so clear as that it would be impracticable for any one to set up a small still in the face of these bounties. deprived of a market for his corn. The|blishments, and for that reason would not right hon. gentleman boasted that his system had raised the revenue consider ably within these few years, but did not state how much that rise was increased by a rise of nearly double on malt and spirits; neither did he state how much his system had increased the illicit trade; nor did he mention that by his system 100,000l. were allowed in drawbacks and bounties, which otherwise should have come to the credit of the revenue; he contended for it, that the system of licence has been proved by many years trial in Scotland, to answer the great objects of assisting agriculture, and adding to the revenue; for that in no country had both increased so much since that system was adopted: he would prove that a 500 gallon still pays 11. 9s. per gallon on its content weekly; whereas a 1,500 still only pays 19s.; so that there was a loss of 10s. per gallon on its content, weekly, to the revenue, by this system of the right hon. gent.; and as to putting down the illicit Mr. May said he was a friend to the trade, he contended for it that a licensed system of bounties, as he was to all long distiller must prohibit an unlicensed dis-established systems; that he disliked all tiller from working, for that on consider-speculative plans, and new fangled invening the risk of seizure and penalties, the great deficiency of produce, and considerable waste attendant on the hurry and confusion of a private still, it must be evident that the licensed distiller must have a considerable advantage over unlicensed ones, and would, if sufficiently encouraged to work, on fair terms, drive the unliMr. Parnell said he could not permit this censed still out of the market. For these question to go to a vote without expressing and other reasons he contended for it, his sentiments upon it. It appeared to him that it was utterly useless to talk of allow-that the right hon. gent. was attempting to ing small stills to work, without taking off the bounty allowed to large ones. tions. The large stills were productive of great revenue, and had advanced the agricultural interests of the country to their present flourishing condition; for it was in those districts where they were established that the tillage of Ireland was most flourishing. practise upon the house the greatest delu sion that ever was heard of. He says that he is a friend to the system of small stills; that it is only by establishing small stills, that the illicit trade can be put down, and in the face of these admissions, he calls upon the house to continue bounties on large stills, which give the persons who work them an advantage of 12d. per gal Mr. Dennis Browne said, that he held the opinion of his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer in such high veneration, that he was always ready to believe whatever he said was right, would prove to be so. He had always proved himself to be a great friend to the interests and welfare of Ireland, and helon over the persons who work small would not desert him in this instance. He said that disloyalty and illicit distillery went hand in hand over the kingdom, and that till illicit distillery was put down, disloyalty would increase. The best mode to put it down was to increase the fines, and to punish all those with severity who broke the laws: in his county the exertions of the gentlemen had proved effectual, and he knew of no illicit distillery; he had great veneration for existing esta stills. The right hon. gent. must know when he holds out to the country a remedy for illicit trade by admitting small stills to work, he is taking effectual measures to prevent any person from attempting to work one; and therefore, sir, his clause to admit them to be licensed is a mere de lusion, and can have no practical benefit to the public. There are now several Irish distillers in London; he had spoken to some of them on the subject, and their uni form answer to his enquiry was, that no one could set up a small still without a certainty of ruin in the face of these bounties. He wished very much to hear the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for England on this point. No one ought to be more capable of giving one; he wished to be set right by him if he was wrong, and he was ready to alter the opinion he had formed if he could shew him that it was erroneous. In a matter of so much importance to Ireland, and particularly to the financial condition of Ireland, he could not suppose the right hon. gent. would be silent, and that where so many Irish members thought the bounties ought to be discontinued, and where the question was whether or not the great defalcation of revenue from spirits was or was not to continue, he hoped that he would either vote with them, and shew to the committee that he had good reasons for voting with his right hon. friend. As to what the hon. member who spoke last had said in respect to the advantage of large stills to the tillage of Ireland, he must deny his position altogether; the measure of the right hon. bart. near him giving Ireland a free trade in grain to England, was the cause of the present flourishing state of the tillage of Ireland; besides in point of fact, there were no distilleries in those parts of Ireland where tillage flourished the most; at Waterford, Clonmel, and the county of Kilkenny. The truth is, that these large stills are injurious to the agricultural interests of Ireland. They can only be worked in sea port towns, where coals can be had, and by persons of large capital, and therefore the whole interior of the country is to be deprived of the demand for grain which distilleries would give if they were and could be established in the interior, the reasoning, therefore of those who maintained that these bounties, and that large stills were beneficial to Ireland, was of the falsest kind, as must be evident to every person who possessed the slightest information upon the subject.The hon. member had called the plan of establishing small stills a new-fangled speculation. He begged to tell him that it had the authority of the Commissioners of Enquiry, and was even admitted to be a good plan by the right hon. gent, whose cause he professed to advocate. He should certainly vote for the amendment of his right hon. friend. Sir J. Newport agreed that in the greatest tillage counties there were no such VOL. XIV. Majority against the Amendment-57 On being re-admitted, we found Mr. French on his legs, speaking to an amendment which had been proposed while strangers were excluded, to prevent parishes from having double fines imposed upon them. He stated that the bill, with all its provisions, had none to punish oflicers who acted fraudulently. He disapproved of that clause which provided, that if a still, or any part of a still, was found in a parish, the whole parish should be fined. If they wished to quiet Ireland, they should permit her to enjoy the rewards of her industry. Mr. Magens contended, that it was impossible to take away the power of fining, without doing an injury to the country. There were instances of town lands being fined three times over for the same still. The informer should be rewarded, otherwise no discovery would be made. Mr. Foster said, that there was a law already, by which the misconduct of officers was severely punished, which rendered it unnecessary to introduce any clause to that effect into the bill. The fact was, the revenue was injured by illicit distilleries, and the morals of the people corrupted. They were arrived at such a pitch as to require severe enactments. If gentlemen did not exert themselves to put them down, the severity of the law would not be the fault; their own conduct alone would be liable to the charge of having given them encouragement. Colonel Barry said that the proposition was to fine the vicinity where any materials used in a distillery were discovered. He was not against fining a guilty individual, when he could be found; but it was not fit that any gentleman should be fined for offences committed while he was doing his duty in that house. That the law to prevent collusion between officers of excise and illicit distillers was not enforced, was sufficiently proved by the circumstance of 375 applications having been made to fine, the county of Cavan, at the quarter sessions, for illicit stills, while not one prosecution was instituted for a misde meanor to punish collusion. Mr. D. Browne thought the proposed clause feasible; but did not approve of the manner in which it was supported. be such as to justify subsidies. But thus much he felt himself entitled to say on the subject, that after the recent experience that had been afforded us with respect to our pecuniary assistance to foreign nations, and after viewing what the state of Europe now was, and the probability of what might speedily happen, he thought that the first duty of the ministers of this country, was the preserving and husbanding our resources, to meet the possible emergency in which we might be soon called upon to make still greater efforts than we had hitherto done; not to assist other nations, but solely in our own national defence. Indeed, if it should ever be possible to obtain peace, we should yet have to assume that defensive attitude which would leave our peace without the best enjoyments, blessings, and securities of a peace; and we therefore were called upon, whether for peace or for war, to exercise care and economy respecting our fi Sir J. Newport said, that he believed the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) was mistaken as to the punishment of officers for collusion. The existing laws went to punish them by a fine of 101. or to render them incapable of retaining their office. The fines proposed upon the parishes amounted to 50l. while the fine for the officer, if guilty of collusion, was only 101. which should be 50l. at least; otherwise fines would be levied on parishes, and officers screened. The fines levied upon the county of Cavan were so great, that it would be impossible to levy them, and he confessed he was very much shaken in opinion, as to the efficacy of fines; instead of having the proposed effect in that county, illicit distilleries had increased. He thought the system of fines ought to be taken into the consideration of the house as early in the next session as circum-nancial resources. This observation he stances would admit. [KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO AUSTRIA, &c.] The Earl of Liverpool presented a Message from his majesty relative to the proposed subsidies to Austria, Spain, and Portugal [for which see the proceedings of the House of Commons], and moved that it be taken into consideration tomorrow, and that the lords be summoned. Earl Grey rose, and made a few remarks on the subject of the Message. As he was quite unacquainted with the intentions of ministers relative to the application of the pecuniary aid, he could only offer general observations. It was impossible for him to know what were the peculiar circumstances of the case, and how far they might applied either to the case of Austria, or to the future wants of Spain or Portugal. He would not attempt to give any decided opinion upon the subject at present, but he could not avoid stating his general opinion respecting our readiness to subsidize foreign powers at this period, after the experience we had so unfortunately had. The Earl of Liverpool rose to explain to the noble lord that there was no mention in the Message of his majesty that the Treaty with Austria was a treaty of subsidy. In fact, it was not so. There was no such thing in the treaty. The Mesalso stated, that when the ratifications sage were exchanged, then the treaty would be laid before their lordships. Previous to that period, it could not be done. All that government meant to propose to parliament, in consequence of what had been said in the Message respecting pecuniary aid, was merely to ask a Vote of Credit, which was common before the session of parliament closed, to enable government to act as new circumstances might render it necessary before it re-assembled. The whole extent of the sum intended to be asked was three millions; a sum which, all things considered, his lordship thought could not be regarded as extraordinary. Under the present circumstances of Eu rope, he thought that if ever government might require confidence, it was when they asked for such a vote of credit. The Earl of Suffolk, though he would not oppose the vote of credit, could not but consider that whatever subsidies might | tions, but in direct contradiction to his inbe granted, would ultimately fall a burthen upon the people of this country. The motion was then put and carried, nem. dis. [AMERICA]. Lord Sidmouth wished to be informed whether it was intended to make any communication to parliament respecting the state of our relations with America? Earl Bathurst said, the negociation being still pending, it was not intended to make any communication to parliament. The arrangement which had been entered into by his majesty's ministers, in America and the government of the United States was unauthorized, the former having made concessions without demanding any of those conditions, the compliance with which ought to have been made the basis of granting such concessions. Lord Sidmouth asked, if he was then to consider the arrangement made by his majesty's minister in America as wholly unauthorized? Earl Bathurst answered in the affirmative. Earl Grey thought from the expression used by the noble earl, that some instructions had been given to Mr. Erskine to make certain concessions, which the latter might have misunderstood. From the arrangements as published in the newspapers, it seemed as if the measures adopted had been preconcerted, for every thing followed in such order and rule, that it was almost impossible to believe but what Mr. Erskine, of whose ability he had the highest opinion, conceived that he was acting strictly according to his instructions. It must be evident, that by the disavowal of this arrangement, the difficulties in the further negociation with America would be materially increased, and when known in America, it might give rise to some imputations against the character and good faith of this country, under the impression that a trick had been resorted to, for the sake of obtaining a little temporary advantage for ourselves. A fearful responsibility, therefore, rested upon ministers, and investigation must take place. The Earl of Liverpool agreed that the disavowal of this arrangement must necessarily increase the difficulties in the negociation with America; but that could not be imputed to ministers, as in making that arrangement, Mr. Erskine had not only acted unauthorised by his instruc structions; he thought it necessary to state this distinctly, as the noble earl appeared to have misunderstood his noble friend. Care would be taken in the Order, which would appear as soon as the course of business would allow, that those vessels which, in the mean time, had sailed in consequence of the confidence reposed in the arrangement made in America, should be excluded from the operation of that Order, and that these persons who had thus embarked their goods should not be losers. As to the discussion of the subject, ministers would be anxious, when the proper time arrived, that every possible information should be given to parliament. BURG He [ARMY REGULATIONS.-LORD HERSH.] The Earl of Suffolk rose to notice an affair of recent occurrence, particularly as he saw a noble lord present (the earl of Westmoreland), who, he supposed, could give him satisfactory information on the subject, which related to the interests of the military profession, to which he himself had the honour to belong. alluded to the case of the promotion of lord Burghersh, contrary to the Regulations of the Commander in Chief of the army. He could not help thinking that the duke of York would not have permitted such a promotion. He had before stated, that the army was in many respects under obligations to his royal highness, and particularly for this regulation. lordship was proceeding to make some observations on the impropriety of a person's being in the situation of Commander in Chief, who was controulable always by ministers, when he was called to order. His lordship making a few more remarks, the earl of Liverpool rose to order, and observed that no motion was before the house. His Earl Stanhope remarked, that lord Suffolk had not yet sat down. Lord Suffolk proceeded, and stated, that if he could get no answer, he should, on a future day, move for a copy of the orders of the commander in chief, as well as for the particulars of the promotion of lord Burghersh, as he was sure that such proceeding must be highly injurious to the feelings of the officers of the army in general. Nothing further was said, and his lordship did not fix any day for bringing forward a motion. |