lord was not such as he imagined it would have been; finding that it was one of a general nature, and that its tendency was to put whole departments upon trial without any specific charges of delinquency stated, he could not concur in the motion. He felt himself bound to dissent from it in its present shape, and he would wait till either the noble lord, or some one as well able as he was, or better, came prepared to state particular charges against particular individuals.

charge every public man in the kingdom with corruption. This is a charge of a most serious nature; and particularly when it is considered how readily and with what avidity every thing that is charged against this house is received out of doors. The people are even industriously told in some places that there is no distinction whatever in this house, that we are all knaves and rogues alike (Hear! hear! hear!); that it does not signify in what hands the government is placed; for, provided they are parliamentary, the country can expect nothing but corruption (Hear! hear! hear!). These, Sir, are most foul, impudent, barefaced, and infamous calumnies; for, I will venture to maintain, that there are in this house, men as honest, as upright, as uncorrupt, and possessing as great integrity as those who make these gross and unfounded charges. And, be he who he may, I do assert and maintain, that he is not an honester pub

Mr. Ponsonby. Sir; I hope that I shall not be accused of wishing to protect abuses, for there is no man in this house, not even the noble lord himself, more anxious to promote the punishment of corruption and abuses, wherever they can be proved to have existed, than myself. But I certainly will not agree to the adoption of the noble lord, because he takes for granted the existence of abuses in every branch and department of the government, without any proof whatever on the subject.lic man than I am, nor do I see the smallThe noble lord might with great facility have obtained his object by proposing other means than this motion for a Committee of General Inquiry. If he had followed the example of an hon. gent. (colonel Wardle) he might, by adhering to that line of proceeding, have obtained the most ample redress that he can wish or desire. In the motion brought forward by that hon. gent., a specific ground was stated, on which he meant to found the charges against the Duke of York. On that ground, so specifically stated, and on the statement of the nature of the evidence which he meant to adduce in support of his charges, the house of commons supported his proposition, and a committee was accordingly appointed, in conformity to his wishes and request. But I do not believe that there ever was an instance in which powers so unlimited and indefinite have been entrusted to a committee, merely because allegations have been made, and examinations taken on other matters tending to charge Corruption, out of which it is supposed that some fresh matter may arise. It cannot even be supposed that the house of commons, on such grounds only, will adopt a resolution which tends in fact and in substance to criminate every man in every department of the state. I find it impossible, on the occasion of so extraordinary a proposition, to content myself with a silent vote, and more especially when I see a disposition in some persons not in the house, to

est reason why I, or any other member of this house, should hesitate for one moment to repel this unmerited and general stigma. My conduct has already proved, in numerous instances, that in all matters of public economy and reformation of abuses, I am disposed to go as far in the protection of the people against extravagance and abuse as any man in this country; and I am still disposed to persevere in that conduct, which I conceive to be only a faithful discharge of my duty to the public. But to the motion now before the house I cannot agree.

Mr. C. H. Hutchinson could not content himself with a silent vote on a motion of this importance. He would support the motion of the noble lord, and would briefly state his reasons. He considered this as a most awful moment: he did not attribute improper motives to any man, but he had unfortunately long been of opinion that the system upon which the government had for some time acted, was not such as ought to be continued-and had the further misfortune to concur with many others, who thought that if it was continued the most calamitous consequences might ensue within a period, up to which, those in that house, who were not very old, might live. Therefore, great as was the inconvenience of granting those unlimited powers, which it was proposed to vest in this committee, he must, without any prejudice or partiality as to this or that government, vote for the noble lord's motion. Considering the

been brought against the motion can be supported. But, were the motion more general even than it is, I for one, should certainly vote for it. It is impossible to have sat in this house, and have heard what has passed here, and to have read so much of what has passed elsewhere, with

existence of numerous, crying, and notorious abuses in various offices and departments; an inquiry into which, it is my opinion, is imperiously demanded.

times, considering the state of public opi- | that no such charge as that which has nion, he thought that the investigation, however inconvenient, ought not to stifled. He took it for granted, that the noble lord was prepared to bring some points before the committee as soon as it was constituted; and he could conceive that he might have some very rational reasons for not chusing to mention them at present. Understand-out entertaining a strong suspicion of the ing the motion to be directed not particularly against the existing government or any other, but generally against abuses, he felt it his duty to support it. He venerated the antient institutions of the country, and no better proof could be given of that veneration than to strike at the abuses which had crept into them and threatened their destruction. The great object was to root out the system of corruption and abuse, and believing this to be the design of the noble lord's motion, and conceiving it, notwithstanding its inconveniencies, to be well calculated for that purpose, he could not refuse to give it all the support in his power.

Mr. Parnell.-Sir; the right hon. gent. below me, who made the charge against the noble lord, of not having stated in his notice the nature of his intended motion, can certainly not support that charge; for the noble lord did in his notice distinctly state, in substance, the nature of his motion; and that, too, in terms sufficiently explanatory to authorize him in bringing it forward in its present shape. Sir, I cannot agree with those gentlemen who object to the adoption of this motion, on the ground that it is of too general and indefinite a nature. The objects which are intended to be included in the inquiry are three; and they are certainly specifical ly stated. The first applies to the mode that was adopted of augmenting the army at the time of colonel French's levy being on foot; the next, to the illicit purchase and sale of commissions in the army; and the third, to the infamous traffick in the disposal of places in various departments of the State. The powers demanded for this Committee are therefore by no means of that general nature which has been asserted. It has been said that the Committee would have an object of inquiry to seek, as their labours would commence without having one before them. But this I deny; for here are three specific objects, every one of which is specifically named, to which the inquiries of the Committee are proposed to be directed. I make these observations with a view of shewing

On

Mr. C. Wynn observed, that if he understood the motion correctly, it went to an inquiry into all corrupt practices and abuses, without any restriction as to time, place, or circumstance. All abuses, at whatever distance of time, whether those concerned were dead or alive, might be brought before this committee, though those who might be able to explain or defend, might be in their graves. To such a motion he could not accede. The want of limitation, as to time, was a strong objection; but he fully agreed with the noble lord below (lord H. Petty), that it was improper to delegate to any committee that discretionary inquisitorial power, which belonged to the house itself. every case brought before the house, it was customary to act from considerations of prudence, as well as with a view to abstract justice. In the first place, the house ought to be enabled to decide, whether the case was of sufficient magnitude to call for inquiry; and, secondly, whether the evidence stated was sufficient, if actually produced, to bring home the charge to the accused. He had heard that there might be cases brought forward, which had taken place in Ireland previous to the Union; cases which might affect lord Cornwallis and Mr. Pitt, who were in their graves. He was ready to say, that the greatest inconveniences would result from this. In short, there was no case, at whatever distance of time it might have occurred, which a committee, constituted as the noble lord proposed, could refuse to enter: tain. Such a motion could not be acceded to, and it had his decided opposition.

Mr. Thomas Foley did not conceive that there was any weight in the argument as to the suspicion which the motion was said to cast upon all the departments of government. An inquiry would be the most effectual way to do away those suspi cions, if they turned out to be unfounded. That there was a strong suspicion in the

If

public mind could not be doubted.
that suspicion was not founded in fact,
those who laboured under it ought to have
an opportunity of clearing themselves.
But if, on the contrary, crying abuses
actually existed, inquiry was necessary to
expose those abuses, and to prevent their
recurrence. In every view, therefore, he
was convinced of the propriety, of the ne-
cessity, of inquiry, and would certainly
vote for the motion.

ed

It would have been well worth his while to investigate into the manner in which these levies were obtained, how conducted, and the result with which they were attended. He would find that no less than 500,000. of the public money had been lavished in this way, and that the produce of men had failed almost in every instance. The examination had only yet proceeded as far as 211,000l. of this expenditure, and it was discovered that of this sum no less than 96,000l. had been drawn by fraud and imposition. There was natter sufficient in these to have afforded a Committee employment for the rest of the session.

Sir John Anstruther objected to the motion on account of its generality, and its assuming as a fact, that there existed abuses in all the departments of the state, in proof of which there was not a tittle of evidence. But the hon. gent. behind him (Mr. Hutchinson) went farther, for he said, that the general system of the government was such as ought not to be continued. The house of commons was part of that system, and he, therefore, now call-state his sentiments. It would not become upon the house of commons to try it- a person filling the situation he did to give self. A gentleman under the gallery had a silent vote. It would be impossible for said, that it was right to suspect persons in him, consistent with his duty, and valuing office: What right had he to suspect the frame of the constitution as it stood, them? If he had any facts to produce, let not to give his most marked and decided him state them; but if he had no facts to disapprobation of the motion. In opposing state, then he had no right to suspect. As it, he did not oppose a motion for a specito the inadmissibility of the motion, he fic inquiry into specific abuses, but he opthought there could be no doubt upon that posed a motion that had no relation whatpoint. It went to inquire into one did not ever to it. A specific inquiry would have know what, and was utterly incompatible fastened on individuals, or abuses; but the with any practical plan of conducting bu-object of a motion, so general and undesiness. If particular facts were stated, it might be fair and reasonable to investigate; but at the same time he could not listen to vague and loose stories even against individuals. The proper plan was to send them to the Attorney-General, and not to place the justice of the country in the worst possible hands; not only in the hands of the house of commons, but what was still worse, in those of its Committees.

Mr. Secretary Canning said, that considering the impression which the notice of the motion, given by the noble lord previous to the recess, had made out of doors, and the public expectation it appeared to excite, he felt it incumbent upon him to

Mr. P. Moore hoped the noble lord would receive back his motion, and bring forward some specific case. He understood, that his motion was to be of the nature described by his right hon. friend next to him (Mr. Tierney), that it would relate solely to some collateral matter arising out of the investigation of the charges against the Duke of York. If the noble lord had read the Eighth Report of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, it was strange that he should have mentioned French's levy only as a subject of investigation. He might have found in that Report, that there were no less than twenty-one such levies.

VOL. XIV.

fined as that before the house, could have no other purpose than to scatter general censure, to keep up a ferment in the public mind, and to do mischiefs beyond the apprehensions of those whose apprehensions were strongest. The noble lord had accused his right hon. friend of a disposition to screen abuses, and had reproved the remedy which was proposed by him to prevent confederacies out of doors, for the corrupt disposal of patronage. Another gentleman had pointed out to the noble lord objects for inquiry, which it appeared were already under examination. It did therefore appear that these manifold abuses, which were supposed to prevail in every department of the state, were not wholly without remedy. If these remedies were insufficient, why did not the noble lord say so, and propose those that might be more effectual? He deprecated the practice of pointing at government as the source of corruption. The effect of exaggerating this evil was, not to allay but to perpetuate the public ferment. An hon. member under the gallery said, that the people had

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