I must here, Sir, remark upon another point on which the hon. member opposite has greatly mistaken the statement of the hon. member behind me. He has argued as if he took credit for a great saving to be effected in the naval department, in order to make out a total saving of eleven millions. He has done no such thing. The savings which he has calculated upon are I -in the army, 6,182,000l.-Management of the revenue, 1,110,000l.—Commissions of accounts and inquiry, 75,000l.-Pensions, 300,000l.-Colonies, 500,000.-~ Bounties, 150,000l.-Allowance on management of debt, 210,000l.-The military expenditure of Ireland, 2,000,000l.making 10,857,000l. The savings which might be effected in the navy departments will amply make good what this sum wants of eleven millions; and it will also cover any errors that may have been made in taking the savings in the other departments so high as 10,857,000l. have felt it due, Sir, to the hon. member behind me, to make these observations in explanation and support of what he has said. The hon. member has undertaken a task of great responsibility, and one attended with great labour, with a view to promote a public object-his exertions, and the manner in which he has made out the grounds of his opinion, entitle him to the thanks of this house and of the country; and as I, Sir, think that the investigation which he has set on foot into every branch of the public expenditure will be attended with the best possible effects, I have felt it my duty to give what support it has lain in my power to give him. upon a system, as one of economy, which charge of no less than two millions a year at the outset, imposed on the public a new by refusing to their Catholic fellow subexpense of 80,000l. per annum. It is, injects their just and constitutional rights. fact, a system which will counteract any good that might be derived from it; and one that is likely to end in adding considerably to the burdens of the people, instead of producing the intended effect of diminishing them. The hon. member has misunderstood what has been said in respect to Newfoundland: it was not intended to take credit for a saving of a million on this head. The hon. member, who inade the statement, has taken credit for 500,000l. as a sum that might be saved, if the British colonies were so managed, that each should defray nearly all the expense belonging to its own defence. He stated the great value of the fisheries of Cape Breton and Newfoundland, in order to shew, that if due attention was paid to them, the inhabitants of those colonies might be enabled to defray all the expenses of them, and cease to be burthensome to this country. Now, Sir, as to the opinion which the hon. member behind me entertains respecting the military expenditure of Ireland, in this I most fully concur with him, and am desirous to bear with him equal responsibility for the accuracy of it; for I defy any one to shew that this greatly increased expenditure, from 400,000l. in the American war to two millions in 1799, and to near five millions in 1809, can be accounted for by any other means than by the impolitic resistance which is made to the constitutional claims of the people of Ireland. It is notorious to every one, that the object of that expenditure is in a great degree to keep the people in subjection, and that so large an army would not be wanting, if no such object existed. I have therefore a right to say, that if a wiser policy was adopted in governing Ireland, a great portion of this expenditure might be saved, and an additional security obtained for the defence of the country, against invasion, in the hearts and affections of the whole people of Ireland. The people of this country are greatly mistaken, if they conceive that this part of the public expenditure is of no concern to them. They pay of it, by the articles of the Union, no less than 15 parts out of 17; and they should be more on their guard, therefore, how they lend themselves to the designs of those who create alarms by talking of the terrors of popery. They should consider that they impose upon themselves a Mr. Rose said, that as to the bounties, he could take upon himself to say, that no considerable saving could be made in this point. In fact, the greater part of the bounties were merely drawbacks; and if the plan of the hon. gent. were adopted in thus taking away these bounties, there would be at least 30,000 weavers in Spitalfields turned out of employment the first fortnight. Most of the bounties were mercly drawbacks of duty on our manufactures upon exportation. There was no subject which he had considered with greater attention than this of bounties; he had gone over the subject again and again; and if it had appeared to him that any of them could have been taken off without doing an injury to the public, be certainly should have proposed it at times, in which the administration to which he belonged were at a loss to know what new taxes to fix upon. It could certainly be no object to the government to continue unnecessary bounties. Mr. Lockhart said, that instead of there being too many officers employed in the custom-house, there was a pretty general complaint among the merchants that there were too few for the great weight of business that is now going on. Mr. H. Thornton took notice of the steps which had been taken by the Committee of Finance, to reform many abuses of which the hon. gent. had complained. As to the Pension List, he certainly wished it was smaller, but there were many parts of it which no man would wish to reduce. There were pensions to the amount of 355,000l. annually to the royal family, and about 70,000l. annually to the proprietors of Irish boroughs, as compensation under the act of Union. There were also pensions very properly given to many meritorious servants of the crown. It did not appear to him that out of the whole pension list there was more than 400,000l. per annum, on which the proposed reduction could have any operation. Mr. Wardle said, that he had never intended to institute any comparison between the modes of collecting the revenue in this country and in France. As to what he had stated about the inspector of canvas, he would be ready at all events to shew, that he had strong grounds for the statement that he had made. The several Motions were then read. Mr. Huskisson objected to some of them, as being stated in such a way as to render it impossible to comply with them, and suggested, that the best plan would be to leave it to ministers to make up the accounts according to the scope of the motions, in the best manner they could; and if the Returns were not satisfactory the hon. gent. might renew his motions next session. Mr. Wardle assented to this, and all the motions were agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, June 20. [FINANCE RESOLUTIONS.] After moving for resuming the adjourned debate on the first Resolution, Mr. Nicholas Vansillart spoke to the following effect: Mr. Speaker; I feel myself bound in the first place to acknowledge the candour and liberality of the Gentlemen opposite, by whom I have been furnished with every official assistance which could diminish the trouble of preparing the Resolutions which I am about to submit to the house, or render them more correct and perfect. This is not only a great satisfaction to me, for many obvious reasons, but especially so, because it will spare the House the trouble of any minute investigation of the details of the Accounts, which would be not only irksome and tedious in itself, but might divert their attention from those principal points to which I wish their con sideration to be directed. Whether those Gentlemen may concur with me or not, in the inferences which I may draw from the facts I shall bring for ward, no dispute can arise on the accuracy of the facts themselves. I have, however, still greater satisfaction in believing, from intimations which have been given me, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is disposed to concur in the whole of the Resolutions which I shall propose. This will not only enable me to abridge the statement into which I shall be obliged to enter; but is much more important, as affording a presumption that, however the Right Honourable Gentleman may have departed in the arrangements of the present year, from those principles which I think wise and salutary in Finance; he has done so under the real or supposed pressure of some occasional circumstances, and not from any fixed or systematic dif ference of opinion. At the time that in stating the Finance arrangements of the year, he disclosed by intention of charging the greatest part of the Loan on the War Taxes, I felt and in! timated, that it would be impossible for me to acquiesce in such an arrangement, with out remonstrance. On some occasions, when the subject might have been proper ly discussed, I was prevented, by private circumstances, from attending; but, I also felt, that considerable advantages would attend the mode of proceeding now adopted. If I had opposed the Bill for charg. ing the War Taxes, with much more eloquence and ability than belong to me, it might have been difficult for the Right Honourable Gentleman, even if he had seen the force of my reasons, to have agreed to my conclusion, After having intimated in the Speech from the Throne, and del berately proposed in his Budget, that no new taxes should be brought forward for the service of the year; he might not easily have persuaded the Country to acquiesce in the imposition of taxes, which might be found burdensome; and, which his proposed measures had shewn to have been in his opinion, unnecessary and inexpedient. Nor could I overlook the objections which must occur to a great prolongation of the sitting of Parliament, which might probably have been the consequence of such a change of system. But, I hoped, that by adopting the present mode of proceeding, and entering upon a discussion not immediately connected with any practical measure, but rather in the nature of an historical review of measures already past, though recent; we should reason with cooler minds, and be much more likely to agree in a result which might at least prevent the repetition of any injurious practice, if not lead to the immediate remedy of mischiefs already effected.' On another ground, I thought the opportunity peculiarly favourable for the proceeding I now propose. It is now three years since the House has been called upon to take that review of the Finance and Commerce of the Country, which, for a considerable period preceding, had been almost an annual custom; and it has happened that those three years have been marked by circumstances which render such a review particularly interesting. All the efforts of our enemy have during this period been directed, with greater violence and pertinacity than ever, and with a vast accession of power, to the destruction of the British Commerce, and with it of our resources and means of resistance. In addition to that exclusion from the Continent, which the united powers of France and Russia seemed to render almost total and absolute, we have also found ourselves, in a great degree, excluded from the Western Hemisphere by the American Embargo, a measure, which, however professedly grounded on defensive principles, had with respect to our trade the effect of direct hostility; and which not only deprived us of a principal branch of our direct trade, but suddenly cut off great part of the means of indirect communication with other countries which we before possessed. Under circumstances so unfavourable, it will be a matter of surprise as well as congratulation, that our Commerce should not have suffered in a greater degree than appears to have been the case. With this part of the subject, I shall begin the Statement of the Resolutions I am about to propose; not, however, meaning to trouble the House with a detail of figures, which will be best examined at leisure, but to point out a few of the most striking and important circumstances. I have, in general, adhered to the form of the Resolutions agreed to by the House in 1806; not that I think it in all respects the best, but, because it has been sanctioned by practice, and will be most convenient for comparison with former years. I have, however, introduced two considerable additions. First, I have attempted a statement of the Finance and Commerce of Ireland, which has hitherto been wanting, but appears to me necessary to complete our view of the situation of the United Kingdom; and I have endeavoured to form a general retrospective Estimate of the Expences of the whole war, and the means by which they have been defrayed, the purpose of which Estimate I shall presently explain. Beginning as I proposed, with the state of Trade, I observe, that the Official Value of all Imports into Great Britain in the year 1802 was 31,442,318/., and in the year 1808, 27,186,025l. shewing a diminution of about 4,300,000l.: but it must be recollected that the year 1802 was a year of peace, and marked by an extent of trade, which no other year, either previous or subsequent, has ever equalled. An average of 6 years presents a more favourable view. On an average of 6 years, ending with 1802, the Imports of Great Britain were 28,419,6261, and on a like average ending with 1808, 28,735,8621., shewing not a diminution but an actual, though small, increase in the latter period. The Official Value of British Manufactures Exported in 1802, was 26,993,1297., and in 1808, 26,692,2887.; so that all the mighty efforts directed against our Commerce, might, in this view, be considered as nearly unavailing. But upon a compa. rison of real values they will appear to have produced some effect; though an effect greatly disproportionate to the magnitude of the means employed, and to the privations and sacrifices, which their employment has inflicted on the subjects, and allies of our enemies. The real value of British Manufactures exported in 1802, was about 48,500,000l., and in 1808 somewhat less than 41,000,000/., being a diminution of about seven millions and a half: Yet, there is reason to believe, that upon a comparison of two periods of six years, the export of our Manufactures has considerably increased, for the Official Value of British Manufactures exported on an average of six years, ending with 1802, was something short of 23,000,000l., and in a like average ending 180s, somewhat exceeded 25,000,0001. In the exclusion of our Colonial Produce, the enemy appears to have been more successful, for the Official value of Foreign Merchandise exported from Great Britain in 1802, was 14,418,8371. and in 1808, 7,398,8031. Comparing the two periods, as before, the diminution, though smaller, is still considerable; on an average of six years, ending 1802, the export of Foreign Merchandise was in Official Value about 11,650,000l. and in an average of three years, ending 1808, about $,430,000l. and in this case, the Real Values do not very materially differ from the Official. And here it is with peculiar pleasure, that I turn to the Irish part of the account, and find the Commerce of that important and interesting part of the Empire in a state of progressive improvement. The Official Value of all Imports into Ireland, in the year 1802, was 6,687,7411. Irish Currency, and in 1808, 7,129,5077. ; The Official Value of Irish Produce, and Manufactures exported in 1802, was 4,876,070l., and in 1808, 5,696,8971. The increase of Real Value was still much greater: In 1802 it was about 8,500,0004., and in 1808 above 12,500,000l.; being an increase of more than one third in the course of six years of a burdensome and expensive War. I must here observe, that it had been my wish to frame these Resolutions in such a manner as to give a view of the Trade between Great Britain and Ireland, intirely distinct from the Foreign Trade of the Empire; but, that the present state of the Accounts upon your table has not enabled me to do so. I hope, however, early in the next Session to move for such Accounts as will remove this difficulty in future. The next part of the Resolutions to which I mean to direct the attention of the House, is that which respects the Unfunded Debt, reserving some remarks on the State of the Funded Debt, as connected with other considerations. The amount of Unfunded Debt in Exchequer Bills, unprovided for, which on the 5th of January 1803 amounted to 0,800,000l., has been so much encreased by successive Issues, that at the close of the present year it will amount to 27,000,000!. Large as this sum may appear, and bur densome as it might prove in case of any depression of public credit, I am by no means disposed to complain of its amount. It seems to me justified by the present abundance of capital in the country, and the high credit of public securities, which have lately enabled the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce the rate of Interest on Exchequer Bills, a circumstance highly satisfactory, and on which I sincerely con gratulate him and the Public. But the point of view in which I now wish to bring this great increase of Exchequer Bills under the notice of the House, is that of its being in operation and effect, an evasion of the Sinking Fund Act of 1792. It was unquestionably the intention of Mr. Pitt, in proposing that Act, and of Parliament in sanctioning it, that every augmentation of public debt (except anticipations to be repaid in a short time) should carry with it from the period of its being first incurred the means of its own ultimate redemption. But as Ex chequer Bills were then considered in the light of mere temporary anticipations, the Act was not extended to them, but applied to the Funded Debt only. It has, however, been found convenient, in the course of the late and the present war, to raise large sums on that species of security without any effectual provision for their repayment, but with a view of keeping them afloat by annual renewals till the return of Peace, or some other opportunity of funding them on favour able terms. I am willing to admit that this proceeding, if managed with caution and discretion, may be found ultimately economical, and in the case of the late advances from the Bank without interest it was undoubtedly the duty of the Right Honourable Gentlemen to avail himself of so favourable an arrangement; which we owe to the talents and assiduity of the Com mittee on Finance.. In consequence, however, of this mode of proceeding, large additions have been made to the permanent debt, which have continued for many years without any provision for their redemption. As an example, I may mention the advance from the Bank in 1798, and that in 1800, on the renewal of the Charter, although these are by no means the earliest instances. I impute no blame to the Right Honour able Gentleman for this omission with respect to the additions which he has made, and which will in the last and the present year amount to no less than eight millions. He has only followed the example of all his predecessors, and of Mr. Pitt himself. But I think it high time to apply a remedy to this evil; and for that purpose I beg leave to suggest to him and to the House two modes of proceeding, for their consideration previously to the next session. The first would be by insertion in every Act for raising money on Exchequer Bills, unless charged upon a fund capable of effectually repaying them within three years, a clause appropriating an annual payment of one per cent. on their amount from the Consolidated Fund to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. The other (and I think the simpler and more convenient) course would be, to vote annually in the Committee of Supply an additional sum to be applied by those Commissioners equal at least to one per cent. on the amount of all Exchequer Bills outstanding and unprovided for on the 5th of January proceeding. In either case doubts might sometimes occur as to the particular sums to which the regulation would apply, but they would be of no consequence, if the House concur with me in thinking it would be safe and wise to give such a regulation the most liberal interpretation. I shall not trouble the House by referring to any other Resolution, till we come to that which respects the Expenditure of the present year; and it cannot but excite anxiety and alarm to observe that the Expences to be provided for by Great Britain, exclusively of Ireland, exceed eighty-three millions. Enormous as this sum must appear, I believe the Funds provided for its payment will prove sufficient; and I am not disposed at this time to question the propriety of services, to which Parliament has recently given its approbation. I wish not to starve any service, nor to check any judicious exertion of our forces, but to warn the House that, in the too probable event of a long continuance of the contest, though we may repel hostility and defy invasion, the growing amount of our expences may exhaust our means, and lay us at the mercy of the Enemy. To one article only of those expences I am at present disposed to advert, and that for the purpose of doing justice to the Gentlemen opposite to me. It is that of the Charges of Management of the Revenue, on the increase of which remarks VOL. XIV. have lately been made. I believe a considerable part of this increase to arise from the abolition of Fees and increase of Salaries in the Department of the Customs, which is in my opinion not only a wise but a truly œconomical regulation; though it occasions an apparent increase of expence, by bringing into the public accounts a part of those emoluments which were before derived from individuals, and not publicly stated. This regulation had been resolved on, and in part carried into execution, before the appointment of the present Ministers. The case is the same with respect to the increase of the Salaries of the inferior Officers of Excise, whose situation was such as made it impossible for them to subsist their families. I know that the necessity of this increase was felt; and I believe that it was ordered before Í quitted the service of the Treasury. It is not my intention to comment on that part of the Resolutions which regards the Finances of Ireland, on account of the absence of so many Gentlemen belonging to that part of the kingdom; and because the subject has lately been discussed by those who are best qualified to do it justice. I pass, Sir, over many considerations naturally arising out of the Resolutions I am about to propose, in order to enter upon that subject which has principally induced me to come forward on this occasion. I mean the charge created on the War Taxes by the Loan of the year. To illustrate this I have prepared two Resolutions stating the total amount of the Expences of Great Britain during the War, taken in its most extensive sense, as comprising the whole period from 1793, and the means by which they were defrayed. For the Peace of Amiens, though an important æra in many respects, and particularly in a financial point of view, can be considered only as a Truce or Armistice in the long course of hostilities arising out of the French Revolution. My materials will be found in the Accounts of Income, Expenditure, and Distribution of Grants, which have been annually laid before the House since 1798, when our public Accounts received their present improved form from the labours of the Committee over which you, Sir, presided with so much ability. Previously to that year, I have taken them from the Accounts laid before Parliament in 1800, preparatory to the Union, from the 1st 4 D |