66 Q. You, Mr. Francis, are one of the Friends of the People? Q. Were you a member of the Friends of the People when Lord John Ruffel's letter was fent to the Conftitutional Society, to inform them the Friends of the People would have no communication with them? A. I was. Q. Have you recollection enough of the tranfaction to know whether that refolution was carried by a cafting vote, or a large majority? A. If I am not mistaken, I think it was carried by a much larger number; I believe there never was but one motion that was carried by a cafting vote that I remember. Q. Did you after that had paffed between your two focieties, know that feveral members of the Conftitutional Society ftill remained in the fociety of the Friends of the People? A. I understood there were fome particular members, certainly. Q Had you any reafon to know of the exiftence of a letter from Sheffield, to the Society for Conftitutional Information, relative to the correfpondence that had taken place between them and the Friends of the People? A. I cannot fee it in that point of view. Mr. Erskine. You are asked whether Mr. Tooke had any concern in forming the propofitions for the London Correfponding Society? A. I know nothing of them. Q. You know there was fuch a fociety? A. I do. Q. You have feen upon your books a letter from that society, afking you to fend a delegate to that convention? A. I don't recollect it, if it had paffed before me, I must have recollected it. Q. It is a letter figned by Breton, flating the general object, and defining to co-operate with them?. A. I do not recollect it. Q. When this was declared by the Friends of the People, did that fociety know there had been a convention at Edinberch? A. I do not remember. Mr. Zocke. When he was afked whether he difcourfed with me, with respect to the plan he propofed for the reform of parliau ent, I think he aufwered he did not, but faid it was the first time he faw me-Lid Mr. Francis mean to fay, we did not difcourfe together? A. I faid, in applying to Mr. Tooke, it was not with a view of difcuffing the plan, but with a view to get his information with refpect to hiftory. Lord Prefident. But Mr. Tooke asks not difcoufe with him about the plan? A. Very likely I might. you, whether you might Mr. Tooke. Does his recollection go to our meeting once, twice, thrice, or four times? Or does his recollection lead him to fay, in the course of 1793, he visited me once or twice, or oftener? A. I cannot speak as to the number of times; it was as often as was convenient, in that part of the country, it was a pleasure to me; it might be three or four times. Q. Might it be five or fix times? A. It might. His Grace the Duke of RICHMOND, fworn.-Examined by Mr. TooKE. Q. I beg your Grace to recollect whether I ever waited upon you with Dr. Brocklefby, at the Ordnance-office, in Palace Yard, Weftminster? A. My own recollection does not serve me upon this occafion; but Dr. Brocklesby having told me he had done fo, I make no doubt it was fo. Q. Does your Grace recollect a young man, in the Long Room of the Tower, of the name of Edridge, when first your Grace was made Mafter General of the Ordnance? A. It has efcaped my recollection. Q. Does your Grace recollect that the courfe of education, at Woolwich, was transfered to the Drawing Room in the Tower? A. It was. Q. Does your Grace recollect fome of them thought themfelves hurt at the upper end of the drawing-room and felt themfelves hurt; and whether there was any application to your Grace? A. Perhaps there might-I don't recollect. Q. Does your Grace recollect giving me a letter to Lord Mulgrave, who was Paymafter, recommending to him this young Mr. Edridge? A. Of letters of fo long a date I have some recollection, but not a perfect recollection. Q. Thefe fmall matters may be out of your mind? A. I have fome recollection. Q. Perhaps your Grace may remember I requested your Grace's affiftance, that he might be remedied from that miffortune in the drawing-room in the Tower, that he might I 2 apply apply to Lord Mulgrave, to obtain a fituation different in the drawing-room? A. I don't recolle&t it. Q. That is the thing Dr. Brocklesby came with? A. Yes, I do remember Dr. Brocklefby came with it. Mr. Tooke. I fhall not purfue this, if the court tells me it is improper. Lord Prefident. Purfue your own method, if you don't go too far. Mr. Tooke. I hope your Lordship perceives I attempt not to do it. Q. Perhaps your Grace may recollect, after the bufinefs of this young man was concluded, that you had kindly given me a letter to the Paymafler for him? And do you recollect afking me whether I approved of Mr. Pitt's plan for paying thofe gentlemen who were the proprietors of boroughs, who, the plan fuppofed, were not willing to yield any thing effential; and whether you remember your Grace's afking me whether I approved of that part of the plan? A. I am forry, but I don't recollect it. Q. Perhaps a particular circumftance will bring it to your recollection- Can your Grace recollect that you difliked the expence it would coft to the nation? Can your Grace recollect a propofal I made, that inflead of paying the proprietor of a borough, or inftead of having a hereditary right to fit in the Houfe of Commons, an exchange might be made, and a peerage given, by which he might have a hereditary feat in the Houfe of Lords? My reafon for afking this queftion, is to fhew that I was defirous to point out the most peaceable way which oc curred to me of effecting this reform of parliament. A. I cannot fay I recollect it; it is very poffible fuch a thing might have been faid to me. Q. Has your Grace no recollection of what advantage was ftated might arife, if it was done with the confent of the borough? A. Not having an idea of being called upon again, I cannot recollect it. Lord Prefident. I underftand his Grace to fay, he has no diftinct recollection of being afked the queftion by you. Mr. Tooke. Does your Grace recollect having met me in a particular public place, not eafy to be forgot, namely, a convention of the city of Wefhninffer, London, Borough of Southwark, and the counties of Middlefex and Surrey; not by delegation, but one thousand or twelve hundred people together; a convention under the name of the Quintuple Alliance? A. I remember having feen Mr. Horne Tooke upon fuch an occation occafion at the London Tavern, but cannot fay whether it was called the Quintuple Alliance. Q. You remember feeing me at a convention of the city of Weftminster, London, Borough of Southwark, and county of Middlefex, and Surrey, which met together at the London Tavern, where I fuppofe, your Grace may recoliect having feen me frequently? A. I remember having feen Mr. Horne frequently at the Thatched Houfe, or London Tavern-I have met him upon thofe occafions. Q. I beg to afk your Grace, whether you can recollect, at any of thofe meetings, at the Quintuple Alliance, your declaring to thofe prefent, that we must not provoke you and other gentlemen in your fituation, if we did not fucceed in a parliamentary reform, for that the people must do it themselves? A. I cannot fay I do. Q. Does your Grace recollect the time of the coalition between Lord North and the oppofition? A. Certainly. Q. Does your Grace recollect the very forlorn fituation in which I ftood, when Sir William Plomer was mayor, and when twelve hundred gentlemen prefent were much offended with me for fupporting the crown again't this junction of power to seize the crown? A. I am very far from recollecting, I don't recollect any oppofition against any perfon for a propofal of that kind. Q. Do you recollet, at any period of the Quintuple Alliance, having feen me in this fituation ftanding an hour amidit hooting and hiffing, and, at last, fucceeding with univerfal approbation? A. I recollect having feen Mr. Horne Tooke at fome meetings very often in the minority and arguing; but I cannot recollect the fubject. I recollect he argued with great ability, and met with great approbation. I cannot remember the circumstance, so as to fay pofitively upon my oath. Q. Was your Grace a member of the Conftitutional Society? A. I was a member of it. Q. I would ask your Grace, but I think it will be impoffible for you not to recollect, whether you ever, at these meetings, heard me fay any thing against the King, Lords, and Commons? A. Never; quite the contrary, I am fure. Q. Does your Grace remember any meeting of delegates of great towns at the Thatched Houfe Tavern? A. I recollect 4. I recollect having n.et Mr. Pitt there at fome of those meetings? Q. At the Thatched Houfe? A. I think it was at the I hatched House. Q. Can your Grace recollect perfuading thofe to give up their opinions, and to leave it to Mr. Pitt to purfue his plan of a reform in parliament ? A. I do recollect it. Q. Do you recollect when this convention of delegates placed their confidence in the Duke of Richmond's plan, we met we knew not for what, and parted without knowing what had been done. We met, and having met, we trufted to the difcretion and integrity of Mr. Pitt, to purfue fuch meafures as he should think fit to obtain the object he had in view? A. Yes. Lord Prefident. Recollect what? 4. I recolleét a meeting at the Thatched Houfe Tavern, and at that meeting I did endeavour to perfuade thofe who were for a more extenfive reform, not to infft upon it, but truft to the attempts made by Mr. Pitt for a more moderate plan. Lord Prefident. Not more extenfive? A. I don't know what that plan was to be--I did what I could with the people, who were for a more extenfive reform, to truft to Mr. Pitt for a more moderate one. Mr. Tooke. I unde: ftand your Grace to have anfwered to my queftion, we were perfuaded, as there were different opinions, it was thought better, as this convention of delegates from counties and great towns were very numerous, we were perfuaded to avoid coalition of fentiments, and truft to the difcretion, integrity, and honour of Mr. Pitt, to take fuch fteps as his wildom thould think fit? A. I do recolle that, but I do not recollect that the heads of it were then known. Q. Your Grace will recollect, that after Sir George Saville had not chofen to undertake the bufnefs, and Mr. Pitt was propoted, this was the fift meeting Mr. Fit appeared to take any lep in the buffs of a parliamentary reform; on the 7th of May, 1782, Mr. Pitt was in a committe of the Houfe of Common, confequently there could not be a fpecific reform. Lord Prefident. That is too much of argument. Can you recolect when this converfation paffed? A. I really cannot. Q. Do you recolle whether it was before, or whether it was after this motion by Mr. Fitt? 4. I only speak by adott of guefs about it. Q. Have |