fy, that the fame principles which go to civil liberty, equally lead to liberty of confcience! I admire with you the glorious fpirit of toleration which you fay has united the once diftracted inhabitants of Ireland into one indiffoluble mafs: and I am fure that nothing fhort of evident danger to the ftate can warrant its interference in religious opinions. But unacquainted, as I am, with the fate of Ireland, it is impoffible for me to know the prefent temper and difpofition of the Roman Catholics there, and thofe only who are on the fpot can judge how far exclufions of this fort are neceffary, or ought to extend.

"With regard to the fifth question, if voting by ballot is advifebe? Iain clearly of opinion that it is not. The idea of a ballot can have arifen but to avoid the effect of fome improper influence; and I conceive it much more noble, directly to check that intuence, than indirectly to evade it by cone calment and deceit. I am convinced that trivial circumftances, in things like this, tond greatly to form the national character; and that it is moft confiftent with that of a British or Irifa freeman, that all his actions fhould be open and avowed, and that he should not be ashamed of declaring in the face of his country whom he wishes to intruft with his interefts. Upon the fame idea that ballots may be a cover for independence, they muft alfo be a cloak for bribery, and a fchool for lying and deceit.

"As to the 7th queftion, whether it would not be equitable or expedient that boroughs now in the poffeffion of individuals fhould be purchafed by the nation? I think, that although no man can have a ftrict claim in equity to be refunded the lofs of what neither buyer or feller had a right to barter, yet it will be wife to purchafe the good will, or at leaft to foften the refiftance, of the prefent powerful poffeffors of boroughs by a most ample compenfation. The liberties of a nation cannot be bought too dear, but the whole coft of thefe boroughs would not amount to the profits of one jobbing contract.

"I have now aniwered all the queftions you have been pleafed to prop fe; but I muft mention another advantage which ought to recommend the meatures you are purfuing to every friend to the internal peace and quiet of the kingdom, which is, that when the prople have obtained a regular, legal, and speedy way of givio, cffect to their fentiments, there can no longer be any app chenfion of their endeavouring to redrefs themfelves by mobs and tumults; and even fuch regular and well-conducted meetings as yours will become needlefs. I mention this circumfence with the more fatisfaction, as it ftamps your conduct with the moft unequivocal marks of difintereft d patriotiin. Power,

when

when once acquired, is generally endeavoured to be preferved by its poffeffors; but you, after having taken up yours from neceflity, and employed it ufefully, are now endeavouring with unexampled virtue to render its continuance unneceffary. For great as your fervices have been in fo foon forming a complete army, in the advantages you have procured for your country, in the good or der you have preferved, and in the efficacy you have given to law, you will derive ftill greater credit, in my opinion, from your good fente in feeing that a great military force, totally unconnected with the civil government, cannot be a permanent establishment in a free country, whofe firft principle is never to truft abfolute power in any hands whatever. Your prefent endeavours to reftore the conftitution to its purity and vigour, evidently tend to make this and every extraordinary inflitution unneceffary: for when the people are fairly and equally reprefented in parliament, when they have annual opportunities of changing their deputies, and through them off, controuling every abufe of government in a fafe, cafy, and legal way, there can be no longer any reafon for recurring to thofe ever dangerous, though fometimes neceffary expedients of an armed force, which nothing but a bad government can jullify. Such a magnanimous end to your proceedings, when after having reftored liberty, commerce, and free government to your country, you fhail voluntarily retire to the noble character of private citizens, peacea➡ bly enjoying the bleffings you have procured, will crown your labours with everlafting glory, and is worthy the genuine patriotic fpirit which animates the Irish Volunteers.

"Before I conclude, I beg leave to exprefs a wish that the mutually effential connection between Great Britain and Ireland, may foon be fettled on fome liberal and fair footing. That which did fubfift was on fuch narrow and abfurd principles, that no friend to either kingdom can regret its lofs; for ded on constraint and dependance, incompatable with the condition of freemen, Ireland had an indifputable right to diffolve it when ever the chofe fo to do. But furely, if we do not mean a total feparation, it would be right to agree upon fome new terms by which we are to continue connected. I have always thought it for the intereft of the two iflands to be incorporated and form one and the fame kingdom, with the fame legislature meeting fometimes in Ireland as well as in England. But if there are difficulties to fuch an union, not to be got over at prefent, fome fort of fodral union, at least, between the two kingdoms feem neceffary to afcertain the many circumstances that concern their joint interefts, and an union of this fort may now be formed with much greater propriety than before, as it will be fanctified by the free confent of independent nations.

lead

"I do conceive that fome ftep of this fort is abfolutely neceffary, because the prefent footing of feparation, rather than union, is too unfa'r to be able long to fubfift. England, befides the load of the whole debt contracted for the ufe of both kingdoms, bears all the burthens of naval defence and foreign negociations, and by far more than its proportion of the land fervice in time of war. But what is worfe, is, that there is no certainty now left that we fhall have the fame enemics and the fame friends. Different interefts, as they may appear, may one kingdom to think a war neceffary, and the other to remain in peace. The fame King, in his different kingdoms, may think it wife to follow the advice of his refpective parliaments. I need fcarcely add, that the unavoidable confequence of fuch a difference, is a war between the two kingdoms. Unlefs fome fettlement takes place upon thefe and many other important fubjects, I am far from being clear, that it will be for the advantage of liberty in either kingdom, that its monarch fhould continue the fovereign of a neighbouring flate, with which it has no connection. I am fenfible that there are great difficulties attending the adjustment of fuch an union, and that it requires great wisdom and temper to form it, efpecially on the part of Ireland, which muft feel that the ought to give the preponderance to Great Britain; but I am fure the bafinefs ought not be neglected, and that every true friend to both kingdoms ought to give it his moft zealous affiftance.

"I beg pardon for having gone into a fubject not immediately belonging to that upon which you have defired m opinion, but I thought it fo connected with it, and at the fame time fo important, that I truft you will excufe my having introduced it. I fear I have been very long, but it was impoffible for me to comprefs fo much matter into a lefs compafs, and when you withed to have my opinion, I thought it beft to give it fully, or, at leaft, as fully as I could in a letter. If it contains one thought that can be ufeful, I fhall be happy. I have only to affure the committee of the zeal I feel for the cause the Volunteers have undertaken, to the fupport of which, I fhall ever be ready to give every afliftance in my power; and that it is with the higheft refpect and admiration for their conduct, that I have the honour to be,

August 15th, 1783.

Their moft obedient,

" and moft humble fervant,
"RICHMOND.

"To Licut. Col. SHARMAN."

His Grace the Duke of RICHMOND, fworn. Mr. Erskine. I have only the fame queftion to put to your Grace that I put upon the last trial, imagining a fpurious copy might be put in. Have you any idea that there is a difference between the letter you have heard read and that which your

Grace wrote?

A. I have not.

Mr. Erfkine. As it is my duty to make the evidence as intelligible as poffible to the court, the letter of the Duke of Richmond, having been now read in favour of annual parliaments and univerfal fuffrage, I propofe to read a letter written and publifhed by Mr. Tooke to Lord Ashburton, which fhews that he differs from the Duke of Richmond.

Mr. Attorney General. I cannot have a doubt, my Lords, that any thing Mr. Tooke or Mr. Erskine will produce, is proper evidence; but I want to know upon what foundation this book is evidence with refpect to the Duke of Richinond, then an affociated member of the fociety for Conftitutional Information, ftating the plan he acted upon? Extracts have been read from the books of the fociety for Constitutional Information.— There is a vast quantity of evidence that goes to a certain extent of making the prifoner the author..

Mr. Tooke. My Lord, I rather believe the Attorney Ge neral himself will think I can eafily make that admiffible evidence, upon his own principle and his own practice; the loofenefs of that principle upon which Mr. Paine's book was admitted a day or two ago, will enable me, though the publisher fhould not appear, to introduce this that was introduced as a book generally known to be circulated.

Lord Prefident. They don't object upon that ground.

Mr. Tooke. Then the other ground will be ftill easier for me, because the indiment charges, that divers books pamphlets, letters, declarations, and writngs were published. All the libellers in Europe might be brought against me under the word divers.' My Lord, this is a pamphlet, or book, introduced under the word divers; and they were written to, or connected with fome fociety to which I might belong, therefore, this is as clear a declaration to fhew the indication of my mind, as the declaration of fome other perfons that might be connected with fome other perfons, with whom I might alfo be connected.

Mr. Attorney General. I fhould be glad to know how Mr. Erskine makes it evidence?

Mr. Erfkine. It is the clearest thing in the world what the courfe of evidence is. The court will not fhut out this evidence, after having heard what it has already heard. We did not

confine

confine our examination of Major Cartwright as a member of the Conftitutional Society, but as a man that knew Mr. Tooke in private life, and was acquainted with his principles and his opinions upon different circumftances. My Lord, if an overt act of rebellion is proved upon Mr. Tooke, I fhould think, it admiffible. You are to argue Mr. Tooke into the guilt of meaning not a reform of parliament in the Houfe of Commons, which, he fays, was his intention, and which Major Cartwright faid he knew to be his intention. Does Mr. Attorney Gene ral mean to argue against it, that he meant to go further than the Duke of Richmond meant? Cannot I rebut that by faying, he meant to go fhort of it. I will ufe your Lordship's own language, which is better than I can put, that a man that attempts to make out a propofition different from that which a man ftates himself to mean, muft make it out by abfolute evidence. It is contrary to the principle of human life fo to reafon. If treafon is in the mind, have not I a right to fay it is not?-What was the whole trial of Hardy but that? I don't mean to fay that Mr. Horne Tooke must be acquitted upon my producing any particular evidence. If you produce divers papers approved of by him, interfperfed with interlineations by him, or any other fpecies of approbation, writings compofed by others, may I not tie that prefumption by the courfe of evidence I am purfuing-What is the anfwer? The anfwer is this, a man may have thefe intentions, and may have thofe opinions, at the time that book is publifhed, and he may forfake thofe opinions and take up others, and confpire, by force, to carry them into execution. He may do fo, and we are examining into the probability of it. My evidence is a chain of many links, though not fo many as the Attorney General's, or fo disjointed as his; but altogether taking up this gentleman in 1780, as a man not going fo far as the noble perion that wrote that book, though, at the fame time, highly refpecting him as the author of it, and as every man muft, refpecting the contents of it. He expreffes his difficulty upon univerfal fuffrage and annual parliaments-He fays, I may go to Hounflow only, when another perfon is going to Windfor. This is a circumftantial means of difcovering the mind of the gentleman at the bar, and thews he is not that falfe traitor that he is charged with being. His writings are faid to manifeft his intention, and that they were published by him with an intention to fubvert the government of the country. Your Lordship is already acquainted with the contents of this book.-Suppofe Mr. Debrett, the publifher, was here, and I faid to him-Did Mr. Tooke come to you to ask you to publish this book? He did. Did you give him the im

preffions?