the matter. But in this he would take the | rated the numbers of those who would liberty to assure them that they were support this measure, within the House as entirely mistaken. Mingling as they did, well as without; and he, therefore, begged only with persons of their own rank and to express his earnest hope that the hon. class, they had not the same opportunity mover would not withdraw his Motion, that humbler individuals possessed of know- but press it to a division, in order that it ing the feelings and sentiments of the great might be seen whether or not the proposibulk of the people. But, as far as his tion was approved, and by whom-when, experience might qualify him to pronounce he had no doubt, though they might form an opinion on this subject, he could assure but a minority, it would still be not so the noble Lord that in every part of Eng- small as the noble Lord evidently anticiland that he had yet visited, he had found pated when he assigned, as a reason for the majority of the intelligent part of the not replying to the question, his belief that population strongly in favour of the mea- no number of persons in the House would sure proposed. It must be evident that the be found to support the Motion before entire mass of the Catholic population, and them. the whole of the Dissenters, must desire its accomplishment on principle: since the sitting of the Bishops in the House of Lords was one of the great marks of the dominant supremacy of the State Church, and the exclusion of the heads of every other sect was a badge of their inferiority. But if there should be added to all these a large number of the most pious and devout communicants of the Church itself, who desired to see the Establishment purified of those temporal, and secular, and political append ages, which in their estimation impeded and obstructed its religious utility, and who thought the Bishops would be more spiritually employed in attending to the care of their respective dioceses-if all these were taken into account, they would no doubt form a numerical majority of the whole population of the kingdom. Judging the measure then by this first test, it ought, undoubtedly, to be entertained. As to the second, there were no vested rights or large pecuniary interests at stake that need make the House pause in entertaining it, as no proposition was now made for abating the incomes of the Bishops, or interfering in any way with their revenues; but simply to relieve them of those political duties, which, as Bishops, they could not adequately or usefully fulfil, without a neglect of those more appropriate and more important religious duties which they had solemnly undertaken to perform. The last test, that of the affording public satisfaction, and accomplishing public good by the passing of the measure, was one, by which the question could only be judged of, through discussion; and that it appeared that his Majesty's Ministers were either unable or unwilling to afford it. He believed, however, that notwithstanding this attempt to stifle and suppress the debate, the noble Lord would find, that he had greatly under Mr. O'Reilly said, it had been stated in a recent debate, that there were questions upon which hon. Members of the same religion as himself could not give a vote on account of the oaths which they had taken at the Bar of that House; but as he (though a Roman Catholic) was resolved to vote upon this question, he was anxious to trespass on the attention of the House for a few moments, while he stated the grounds of his vote. He felt that by that moral compact, to which the right hon. member for Tamworth had so forcibly alluded on a former evening, he was not only bound not to injure the Protestant Establishment as now existing by law, but that he was also bound to afford it—not, indeed, as a religion, for from its religion he conscientiously dissented, but as an institution which the State thought necessary-that support which the members of it deemed essential to its security and preservation. Recollecting that an hon. and learned Member who spoke with great authority had denied that any moral compact had ever been entered into by the Catholics on the subject, he felt himself called upon as a Catholic to state, and he did state it most explicitly, that he recognized distinctly the existence of that moral compact. He cared not whether that recognition rendered him popular or otherwise, for, as an honest man, he felt bound to make that declaration. It might not make him popular among a population which was smarting and suffering from the oppression which it had sustained under too many members of the Establishment; but he was certain that, in making that recognition, he was expressing the opinion of every honest, conscientious, and independent Catholic in the country from which he came. He was particularly anxious that the grounds upon which he was going-to vote that evening, should be understood | enter into this subject at present, as I, at both in and out of that House, and he first, intended, and for which I trust inwould, therefore, state, once for all, that, quiry and conviction have in some degree until the Legislature pointed out to him prepared me, but for which, it would seem, what line he ought to take upon that oath, there is now no occasion, because the advo he should follow the dictates of his own cates of the Motion are, at least, so far conscience, and those dictates only. complimented, by the fact, that no one has Mr. O'Connell said, that in considering ventured openly to oppose it. The Bishops, this question, he considered it as a question it would seem, are deserted by the Minis affecting the political influence, and not the ters, and have no private friends. But, it religious functions, of the Bishops. In his is said, that this Motion is undeserving of opinion, there was nothing of religion in- support, or even of discussion. Unlike volved in the Motion then before the House. some of those stirring subjects which enlist If it were a question whether the continu- all our feelings, and our interests, such, for ance of Bishops was or was not an advant- instance, as a repeal of the tile-duty, or a age to that form of religion which they commutation of tithes; or, when with a professed, he should not interfere in it; but view of relieving the distress which bears he now interfered in it because he consi- on agriculture, it is gravely proposed to dered it a question as to whether the Bish- allow the farmers to drive to and fro in ops injured or served the body politic of the untaxed carts, provided they be without State. If it could be shown to him that springs-then, indeed, the Government and the seats which the Bishops occupied in their friends are eager for the fight; but, the other House of Parliament had ever because no question of this grave importbeen made instrumental to the advancement ance is before us, no one is to speak withof our rights, to the amelioration of our out being exposed to the taunt of silenceinstitutions, to the reduction of our bur- to contumely and reproach. Whatever dethens, and to the extension of the prosperity gree of importance may attach to that reand liberty of the people, he would readily proach, I am prepared to take my share. vote for the continuance of the enjoyment At least, we shall be appreciated elsewhere, of them by the Bishops, but on looking for, however little it may be known or back upon the events recorded in our his- heeded in this House, or however untory during the last 130 years, he could palatable the declaration, there is no subnot find a single occasion on which the [ject which enters so deeply into the feelBishops had taken a part favourable to ings of the intelligent portion of the comliberty, or to the amelioration of the pro-munity of this country, or which, in spite spects of the country, or to the emancipa- of every attempt to smother it, is so tion of the Catholics and other Dissenters. They made a negative quantity in legislation-they were always found at the wrong side, and never on the right, and, therefore, he should support the present Motion. Mr. Harvey said: It is often repeated of this House, that every order of the community is fairly represented, and that there is no feeling or wish which can be entertained by any rational class of the country which may not find expression, and even advocates in this House; and, owing as I do, my seat in this House mainly to the kind and disinterested exertions of a large portion of persons known as Protestant Dissenters, and never shrinking from the unprofitable avowal of my participation in their sentiments, I should feel, that upon this trying occasion, so deeply affecting their interests, I was deserting their cause, and disappointing their just expectations, if I were to permit this Motion to be smothered in the manner it is attempted to It is true, it is not my intention to be, rapidly advancing, and that to a perfect triumph, as the subject of this Motion. There is, indeed, a principle at work beyond these doors which will at no very distant time render the question, whether the Bishops shall be in the House of Lords, none other than whether you shall maintain an endowed establishment. There is, indeed, at this moment, a concessionary spirit among the Dissenters, which might induce them to forego much as the price of peace. It is a foul calumny upon this great and enlightened body of persons to say, that they covet the revenues of the Church, and desire to seize them for their own pur poses. But this, I will say, that if the Dissenters, looking at the paramount importance of separating the Church from the State, cannot obtain this great object through the fair and legitimate channels of open discussion, they must effect it through those means of influence which it would seem appeal far more powerfully to the selfish interests than to the purer feelings of mankind. Strip the Church of England of her temporalities, and she must fall, a sure and melancholy testimony of her worldly character. Hon. Members seem most strangely to confound a Church, established and endowed by law, with a Church based upon the simple principles of Christianity. They confound things essentially different. They regard tithes and theology-dogmas and doctrines-discipline and duty, as one and the same thing. The Church of England, delineated in its doctrines and liturgy, I apprehend is dear to the great portion of the people of this country, whether they be within or without the pale of the Church. If you were to divest the Church to-morrow of its gorgeous array-if you were to strip your Bishops and the whole of your hierarchy of their temporalities, the Church of England, as a Christian Church, would not only stand, but would increasingly flourish. You would discover in its principles its purity-you would read in its professions its faith. But nothing so much tends to disparage the simple principles which 1,800 years ago were proclaimed from the heights of Sinai, than that you should see the Bishops belying the simplicity of their creed, in the gorgeousness of their worldly appearance. There is no kindred feeling between the appearance of the towering teachers of your religion and the lowly spirit which it professes. It is these things which give force to the shafts of infidelity, and give point to the sword of scepticism. To those in this House into whose minds the genius of Christianity enters with its softening spirit, I would say, there is no mode by which they can more effectually advance the religion which they adorn, than by turning the Bishops from the House of Lords, and sending them to those scenes of rural utility in which their example may inspire confidence, and create admirers. Many things have been advanced by hon. Gentlemen who have spoken this evening, which, in the hands of the dexterous debater, might be turned to the prejudice of those who advocate this Motion. It cannot be imputed to them, that the Motion is supported by pre-arrangement, and is the result of perfect concord of opinion. One of my hon. friends does not object to the appearance of some Bishops in the House of Lords, but thinks there are too many. Now, this concession destroys the whole principle. If spiritual Bishops are to be tolerated in the Lords at all, it is to me a matter of indif ference how many. I argued that point on the discussion of the Irish Church Tem poralities Bill, and I still hold, that in the degree, if at all, that religion is to be advanced by the agency of episcopacy, it is important that the number of Bishops should correspond with the vast objects of their appointment. This matter requires matter_requires to be clearly understood-what I quarrel with, and what the Dissenters quarrel with is, the alliance of the Church with the State, illustrated as that alliance is, by the appearance of Bishops in the House of Lords, as a part of a sect exclusively endowed with immense revenues and domineering distinction. Again, when it is said, that the Church ought not to have its Bishops in the House of Lords, because other sects have no Bishops there, is it to be supposed, that the Dissenters are envious of Bishops, and only require to be represented by their own? Strange ignorance or infatuation all this! Of all libels that would be the greatest, even surpassing that which imputes to us that we wish to divide the revenues of the Church. The Dissenters disclaim all connexion with the State, both as regards its honours and its riches. They are of opinion-an opinion which the experience of 1,800 years has confirmed-that Christianity not only requires no aid from the civil power, but that such aid impedes its progress. During the first three centuries of the Christian era, Christianity was enabled to stand against and triumph over powers far more formidable than belong to the refinements of the present day to oppose to it. It overcame the powers of Paganism-it humbled the pride of the Cæsars. Nothing in the pomp of Rome-nothing in the pride of courts, could resist its simple and sublime dignity; and, however seductive may be the influence of fashion in the present day-however much of profit, by being subservient to courts-however brilliant and alluring the regalia of monarchywhatever splendor may belong to crowns or whatever there may be in the sanctity of mitres-in the strength of sceptres-in the reverence of croziers,-Christianity rests on imperishable principles, and all that the Protestant Dissenters ask is, that you will not interfere, but let Christianity stand on its imperishable and inherent pretensions, simple and mighty in its power and beauty. Mr. Hume was sorry that he had not been present at the commencement of this debate; but he could not permit it to con clude without repeating the sentiments the House, that this question was not Mr. Sheil rose to express his own opinion upon this Motion rather than to invite Ministers, for such invitation he knew would be in vain, to express their sentiments upon it. He also rose, because he thought, that it would be pusillanimous, on his part, as an individual, not to record his opinions on a question so generally interesting. He could not help thinking that a large change of opinion with respect to the Bishops had taken place in the Ministry since no very remote period. Did not hon. Members recollect the menace uttered against them in another place, when they were significantly warned to "set their houses in order?" The times, however, were changed; and his Majesty's Ministers now felt retrospective indignation for the indignities which these reverend personages formerly suffered. It appeared as if a declaration was now wanted from He Mr. Ewart said, that he agreed with the hon. member for Tipperary, that the independent Members of the House should not be driven into a pusillanimous silence on this occasion. It might be well for his Majesty's Government to maintain a mysterious reserve; in them such a course might be prudent, or expedient. But he (Mr. Ewart) held, that the independent Members of the House were justified in acting on more general principles, and of taking a long-sighted view of important questions such as this. They must consider what in the main, and with a comprehensive view of the future, was the wisest and most reasonable course. entertained the conscientious opinion (and, entertaining it, he was bound to express it) that it would be better for the interests of He office," said, that though, on his first calling the attention of the House to the subject, he had limited his Motion to the city of London alone, he had now found reason to extend its operation, so as to include all the short stages. The number of vehicles of this description passing through Cheapside in one day was not less than 1800; and the magnitude of the subject was, in itself, sufficient to show, that it deserved the attention of the Legislature. He would not enter into any detail of his plan, but would merely mention, that one of its features would be the licensing of the drivers, instead of the proprietors of omnibuses and cabriolets. Mr. Roebuck hoped the diminution of the number of the vehicles in question would not form a part of the proposed mea. sure. Their number could scarcely be too large, for if they exceeded the public necessity, they would, of themselves, diminish. He could only say, that with respect to the omnibuses, they were of great convenience to the citizens of London, and he should be sorry to see any measure introduced which might have the effect of checking a free trade in vehicles. Great caution was requisite in interfering with such a subject, for if the competition in omnibuses and stage-coaches were to be impeded, those persons who contrived to live a few miles out of London, with incomes of from 1001. to 70l. a-year, would be put to great inconvenience. Mr. Hume thought, after paying considerable attention to the subject, that licensing the drivers instead of the proprietors of omnibuses and cabriolets would be productive of bad consequences. It would be contrary, too, to the recommendation of the Committee which had sat on the subject, and which concluded, that it would be better to subject the proprietor, who had something, to the responsibility, and not the drivers, who had nothing but their weekly wages. Lord Althorp said, that he should be extremely sorry if, in giving his vote for the Motion, he should be supposed to do anything detrimental to free-trade. He did not think he should be doing so; on the contrary, he thought some legislative enactment on the subject would be of great public advantage. It was certainly desirable that instances of gross misconduct on the part of the driver, such as had been fre quently before the public, should be put an end to. Mr. O'Connell was decidedly of opinion, |