age mortality in London was supposed to tropolitan police, as being at variance be one in forty; in Paris it was one in with the principles of the British constithirty-two, and in Berlin one in thirty-tution. He did not think it right at prefive. The Earl of Durham observed, that if the argument of the noble Lord was pushed to its full extent, the whole of the medical profession ought to be composed of apothecaries. sent to enter into any discussion of the merits of this force. This petition, as well as other circumstances, showed that great dislike for the force prevailed throughout a considerable portion of the metropolis. He believed, however, that there were many parishes in the metropolis where this feeling did not exist to the same Lord Ellenborough was happy to say that he was not competent, from his own experience, to form an opinion on the sub-extent. It was his own opinion that, with ject, as he had never consulted a Physician in his life. The Petition was laid on the Table. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] New Writ ordered. On the Motion of Mr. proper regulations, the force might be made a valuable institution, and it had very great advantage over the old watch system, in possessing the power of acting with combined strength. Nothing was more necessary than that a force established for purposes such as these, should have the goodwill, confidence, and support FRANKLAND LEWIS, for the Borough of Thirsk, in the of the community amongst whom they room of Sir R. FRANKLAND, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Petitions presented. By Sir RICHARD VYVIAN, from Derby, against any Measures likely to weaken the Efficiency of the Established Church.-By Sir HENRY HARDINGE, from Launceston, for Relief from Taxation; and by Mr. BEILBY THOMSON, from Bridlington, to the same effect.By Sir JOHN JOHNSTONE, from the Medical Practitioners of Scarborough, holding Edinburgh Diplomas, for the Repeal of the Apothecaries Act.-By Mr. WILBRAHAM, peal of the Reciprocity of Duties Act.-By Mr. O'Dwyer, were placed, and for whose benefit and protection they were established. The efficiency of such an establishment must depend in a great measure upon its possessing the confidence of the public. Sir Samuel Whalley thought it very desirable that the Government should GUEST, WYNN, and Alderman WOOD, from the Dissenters turn its attention to diminish the expense of several Places,—for Relief.-By Sir HENRY PARNELL of the metropolitan police. It was an and Mr. MURRAY, from Dundee and Leith,-for the Re-efficient force, and he believed, that the from four Places, against Tithes; and for the Repeal of the Union.-By Mr. CURTEIS, from two Places, for the shire, against any Alteration in the Corn Laws; and from the Shipowners of Sunderland, for a Continuance of the Protecting Duty on the Exportation of Coal.-By Mr. BRISCOE, from several Parishes, for the Repeal of the House and Window Taxes.-By Mr. GILLON, from Fal Abolition of Slavery.-By Mr. TALBOT, from Glamorgan kirk, for the Repeal of the Duty on Baltic Timber; and from Fruchie, for the Exclusion of the Bishops from the Places, against the Tithes on Fish levied at Leith and Newhaven.-By Sir H. PARNELL, from the Carters of House of Lords.-By Mr. A. JOHNSTON, from several Dundee, for the Repeal of the Tax on Horses.--By Mr. Augmentation of their Fees.-By Mr. O'DwYER, from Places, against Tithes,-By Colonel LEITH HAY, Sir and Messrs. H. HUGHES, and PENDARVES, from several By Sir CHARLES BLUNT, Colonel EDWARDS, Sir OSWALD Messrs. PENDARVES, GREENE, BAINES, GROTE, H. METROPOLITAN POLICE.] Mr. Clay presented a Petition from the parish of St. George, in the county of Middlesex, complaining of the institution of the me principal cause of the dislike entertained towards it in the metropolis, was the great increase of the parochial expenses since its institution. He was glad to see the noble Lord, the Under Secretary for the Home Department in his place, as he might have an opportunity of removing an apprehension which was very generally felt abroad, that the Committee which had been appointed this Session, to inquire into the constitution, management, and expenditure of the police, was not fairly formed. Neither of the members for Westminster was upon that Committee. Nor was he, although he represented two of the most populous parishes in the metropolis. His learned colleague, indeed, had been put upon the Committee, but that Gentleman had not half the leisure to devote to the inquiry that he had. Viscount Howick denied, that there was anything unfair in the manner in which the Committee had been appointed. Last Session a Committee had been named, to which not the slightest objection had been made. The Committee had proceeded to investigate, but were unable to bring their labours to a close; and, in the metropolis, there was a feeling towards pursuance of the recommendation of that the police, similar to that expressed by Committee, another had been appointed, the petitioners. That feeling was not and he (Lord Howick) had copied the list political-and, it was admitted, that the of last Session, merely substituting for the police was an efficient force. But a names of three or four Gentlemen, who great jealousy was felt, that so large a were unable to attend, the names of other military body, uniting, too, a system of persons, who, he had reason to believe, espionage with their military character, would attend. He thought, therefore, should be under an irresponsible control, that the assertion of the hon. member for and at the disposal of the Minister for the Marylebone, relative to the appointment time. The expense, too, was a great of that Committee, was unfair and un-matter of objection. He did not know called for. The statement made by the what was the object of the Committee. same hon. Member, with respect to the He believed that it had been appointed expense of the police force, he must also before he and the hon. member for Marysay, was a little premature, as he could lebone had been returned-but he thought assure the House that that establishment that they ought to have been added to it had been managed with the greatest since. He did not know what was its obeconomy. Any person who looked to the ject; but, he knew that it was the pracservices rendered by that body, would attice of Government, when it wanted to be once admit that the money it cost had not been thrown away. Colonel Evans did not think the explanation of the noble Lord very satisfactory; but he was bound to thank the noble Lord for not having taken up his time, by putting him upon the Committee. He should not be the less acceptable to his constituents, and especially to the popular party, for not having been appointed by the Government upon a single Committee. There was a Committee last year upon East-Indian affairs, and he was excluded from it, although, there was but one other military man who knew as much of India as he (Colonel Evans) knew. Again, there was a Committee upon the military establishments, and from that also, the Ministers did him the honour to exclude him, though that could not be on account of his want of experience. He had, therefore, to thank the noble Lord for giving him that opportunity of showing that there could be but little reason for the supposition, which he had understood was beginning to prevail, that he was about to ally himself to the Government. But, still he thought that it was, to say the least of it, indiscreet to exclude the metropolitan Members from an inquiry in which the metropolis was so much concerned. However, for his own part, he could only thank the noble Lord for having spared him a duty, to which, if it had devolved upon him, he would have given his best attention. He entirely concurred in what had been said by the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, and he knew, that throughout the whole of proved that a strong feeling abroad was unfounded, to form a Committee of persons favourable to the views of the Government. But, from what he had seen of the noble Lord's (Lord Howick's) political conduct, he believed that, if the noble Lord gave his attention to the subject, he would make considerable improvements in the system. He did not believe that any desire was felt to return to the old system of the watch, but to place the police under some local control. Sir Robert Peel reminded the House that the Committee had been appointed at the suggestion of the hon. member for Middlesex; and, as to its composition, he was sure, there could be no objection to placing upon it either of the hon. Members, or any other hon. Member who expressed a desire to be upon it. But he hoped the House would suspend its judgment, both upon the expense and the administration of the metropolitan police, till the Report of the Committee was made. It was denounced as an expensive force; but the term "expensive" was relative, and, in order to find out its value in the present case, they must first inquire whether the number of the men employed was greater than was necessary to preserve the peace of the metropolis. They must next ascertain whether their dress was too expensive, or the pay higher than it ought to be; or whether it was made a source of patronage, which he was sure it was not, the object being to secure as efficient persons as possible. If it should be found upon inquiry, that efficient men could be secured for less pay, he was sure there could be no desire on the part of the giving it full power over the men ; and he Committee to maintain it at its present was sure, that greater attention would be amount. At the same time, he must ob- paid to the expense arising out of the serve, that it was exceedingly desirable maintenance of this force, by a Board that the pay should be such as to preserve consisting of individuals selected from the them from the necessity of enlisting only various parishes, than by the Government. scamps into the service. The police ought He did not, nor did the petitioners, say to be men of respectability, for they were that these men were too well paid. On intrusted with the discharge of a very the contrary, he believed that many bad great and most important duty, and were men obtained an entrance into the force often called upon to exercise considerable in consequence of the pay not being sufdiscretion. It was essential, he thought, ficient to induce men of good character to that the Government should be responsi- accept situations in it. But he comble for the direction of the police, which plained, that there were too many men it could not be, if the parochial authorities belonging to the police, and the number were permitted to interfere with it. In- could be lessened, without the efficiency deed, if that took place, all the responsi- of the force being in the slightest degree bility would be destroyed, for the Com-impaired. been voted last year for the maintenance of a force which was created for purely local purposes. He thought that the country at large ought not to be saddled with a tax from which it derived no benefit. He did not mean to deny the utility of such an establishment in the Metropolis, but he thought the expense ought to be borne by the inhabitants. missioners could not be responsible, the Mr. Cayley said, that 60,0007. had Government could not be responsible, nor in times of commotion or turbulence would it be possible to make a number of separate and distinct parochial authorities responsible for not acting together with uniformity of purpose and object. Considering, at the same time, that his Majesty's Government defrayed a portion, and that not a small one, of this force, it was not unreasonable for it, on that score, to claim the control which it possessed. He would, however, suggest to the noble Lord, to place upon the Committee any Gentleman who expressed a desire to that effect, of course not allowing those who had peculiar views to obtain an unjust preponderance. Mr. Hawes said, that the Committee of last year were unanimous in their approval of the manner in which the metropolitan police was regulated, not only in the economical management of the funds appropriated to that service, but also of the excellent system of discipline under which the men were governed. The only improvement which the Committee thought might be effected, was that of giving the sole control of the force to the Commissioners, and taking it from under the control of the Home-Office. Major Beauclerk said, the petitioners did not complain of the efficiency of the police force; they objected to the expense, and they called upon Government to look into this expense. He thought that this was a most reasonable request. They Sir Henry Hardinge was of opinion, said too, that it ought not to be under the that the police corps and the Commiscontrol of the Home-Office, and in that he sioners should be under the control of fully concurred. He contended that it the Government; but, at the same time, was a most dangerous principle to allow he thought that the selection of men, and the force to be under the control of the all matters of discipline and internal manHome Department. He admitted, that, agement, should be under the control under the right hon. Gentleman's admin- of the Commissioners, and not be interistration, or even under the present Go-fered with by the Government. Indeed, vernment, it might not be dangerous to allow such a force to be under the control of the Home-Office, but the time might come when it would be most dangerous to allow the Home-Office to have any such powerful control whatever over the metropolitan police. He believed, that a Central Board chosen from all the parishes would be the better course to adopt, VOL. XXII. {Third} Series that was what he understood was to be the case when the force was established. In cases of meetings of Trades' Unions and other bodies, from which riots might be apprehended, it was necessary that the Government should have some control over the force, otherwise it would place too high a responsibility on the Commissioners. Petition laid on the Table. F BISHOPS IN PARLIAMENT.] Mr. Rippon | before the period of agitation arrives, for rose to move for leave to bring in a then it may be done with more effect and Bill for relieving the Archbishops and with a better grace. Remember the ReBishops of the Established Church from formation advanced by the determined their Legislative and Judicial Duties in non-compliance of its supporters, and be the House of Peers. The hon. Member assured, that no resistance to national spoke to the following effect:-I am aware grievance is so invincible as a calm resoluthan an appeal to the indulgent considera- tion not to obey. I will not fatigue the tion of this House may be deemed the patience of the House by referring to customary preface of every unpractised periods long passed by. I will not consider Member; but I can truly aver, that looking whether the right of Bishops to sit in to the importance of the subject I am about Parliament is by prescription, or in respect to bring under its notice, and knowing the of fictional baronies. I will not discuss feebleness of my ability to do justice to its whether they sat in the Saxon Courts as merits, I am only sustained in my under- Judges or as Peace-makers. I will not taking by a reliance on that generous and debate the Clerical position, that the Lords impartial feeling, which will not under- Spiritual at this day form a third and estimate the worthiness of a measure by independent estate in the other House of reason of the inefficient arguments of its Parliament; I will not search the records humble proposer. I am not incited by of history to discover a precedent for my desire of popularity, or love of novelty. I present measure. Time, Sir, changes the offer this proposition with a sincere and position of cireumstances, and it also inlong-formed conviction of its necessity and creases the capacity of the human mind to its justice. I wish to irritate no private judge soundly on public affairs; for this feelings, I desire to enlist no party passion. reason, therefore, I prefer the judgment of I will endeavour to state my opinions our own age to that of any by-gone period. calmly, fairly, and briefly. It is unnecessary I must entreat the House to bear in mind at this day to cite authorities showing the this one important fact, that the superior propriety of Church Reform, but I cannot knowledge and education of the clergy in forb ar calling the attention of the House all countries and at all times have enabled to the opinions of one for whose Conservative them to maintain a delusive influence over wisdom they will entertain sincere respect an ignorant and superstitious people; and -I mean Lord Bacon-who, when ad- formerly in this country, when the Laity dressing his Royal Master on the "better gave little consideration but to feats of pacification and edification of the Church arms and hospitality-when nobles were of England," thus expresses himself;"I unlettered, and Kings could scarcely sign would only ask why the civil state should their names, the Clergy became desirable, be purged and restored by good and whole- if not necessary, adjutors in Civil Governsome laws, made every third or fourth ment. From the time of Beckett to that year, in Parliament assembled, devising of Sir Thomas More, a period of nearly remedies as fast as time breedeth mischief, 450 years, the office of Chancellor, or Lord and contrariwise, the ecclesiastical state Keeper, the highest civil office in the state, should still continue upon the dregs of was filled almost uniformly by an ecclesitime, and receive no alteration now for astic, and prior to the Reformation there these forty five years and more?" Two sat in the other House of Parliament two hundred years, Sir, have since passed away, Archbishops, twenty-four Bishops, twentyand the Establishment continues "upon the six or twenty-seven mitred Abbots, and two dregs of time; a revolt has now taken Priors-in all, a body of fifty-four or fifty. place in the minds of men; the intelligent five ecclesiastical persons, nearly equalling community loudly demand a reformn in the in their number the temporal nobility of Church Establishment, and it is the duty that time. The cause which formerly of this House to examine into that institu- warranted this practice exists no longer. tion, and make it satisfactory to the views That which was then desirable is now of the people. I maintain, Sir, that it is useless, and if continued will become the first duty of Civil Government to afford dangerous. I offer this as a first step in satisfaction to those by whose voluntary Church Reform. I consider that it is our obedience it is instituted and maintained, duty to begin with the heads of the Estaband never to forget the immense importance lishment, and thus show to the inferior of timely concession. Observe the signs clergy our impartiality and our justice; by of growing discontent; reform your system this means we shall strengthen the effect of our future measures in regard to them, | reason assure us, that all just and proper by evidence of our sincere and honest course measures for the government of the Church, in respect of the hierarchy. I ask this which might be recommended by the House, Sir, to consider and decide whether Bishops out of Parliament, would be reit be meet and useful that the heads of a ceived with equal attention by both Houses Christian Church, whose duty it is to retire of Legislature, and by the people with less from the world, not meddling in affairs of suspicion and distrust than when advocated State, whose profession is humility, whose in the Senate by interested parties, to denouncement hath been the pomps and whom public feeling is frequently adverse? vanities of this wicked world-is it proper Besides, be it remembered, the Clergy, that such should be made agents in political equally as the members of our other instiaffairs, and clothed with temporal splendor? tutions, enjoy the right of voting as freeis it right to impose legislative duties holders in respect of their property for the upon those who are set apart from the rest election of representatives in this House; of the people for the service of God, whose and if the advice or opinion of the Church proper business is the care of the churches upon ecclesiastical matters were required committed to their charge? What are in another place, let the Bishops be sumthe crying evils of the present system? moned in the same manner as the Judges. -Pluralities, non-residence, and unequal The only advantages that I can discover in distribution of wealth. You create a the present system, if such the friends of plurality of duties by placing political the Establishment deem them to be, are power in the hands of spiritual teachers. these that the Church obtains a share in You cause non-residence by requiring the Civil Government, and the Chief Magisabsence of the overseer from his diocese trate has control over spiritual concerns. to attend his duties in Parliament; and Thus one usurpation is balanced by another. by the same act you afford an excuse for The power of appointing to the Episcopal the unequal apportionment of wealth; by Bench is placed in the hands of a minister, the ever ready plea of extraordinary ex- and we know that private interest, political penses created by this political abduction; intrigue, and courtly favour, have someyou bring them, bedizened with the splen- times offered stronger recommendation than dor of title, to mix in the amusements of pious worth. The system of translation a metropolis-to mingle in the plots and makes them, in a certain degree, dependent jobs of Government intrigue; you tempt on ministerial favour, and subjects them to them to gratify pride, avarice, luxury, and the trying temptation of yielding their indolence; you shower wealth and splendor integrity to their interest. But, Sir, we upon them; you forget they are but men. must take another view of this question. Before I proceed further with my objections, It is proper to consider political tendencies I will, with the leave of the House, examine -to reflect whether it is not the interest the merits of that argument ever employed of certain men to maintain things as they in defence of the practice of Bishops sitting are, to resist innovation, and prevent the in the House of Lords, that by so doing diffusion of political truth-to consider they represent the Clergy, and thus watch whether the possession of State patronage, over the spiritual and temporal interests of which both enriches and exalts, must not the Church. In the first place, let me ask, necessarily create an adverseness to that are the Bishops chosen by the Clergy? No, change, by which its wealth and eminence they are ordained and virtually appointed may be diminished; and it is right to reby the Crown. How then can a Bishop view the past conduct of parties, and see be called the representative of his Clergy, whether private pretensions have not frewhen they have no voice in his election- quently been preferred to national adwhen he is, in fact, a mere State-made vantage. Now, Sir, I will take upon Father in God? Have they any veto in myself unhesitatingly to assert, that the ecclesiastical questions? Can they enjoin tendency of all Church Establishments conone rite or ceremony? Can they establish nected with the State has been, and must be, or annul one article of faith? No, Sir, all to oppose political improvements; they are power and jurisdiction relating to these aware that no change can possibly increase, matters is lodged in the hands of the King but may possibly diminish the wealth and and Parliament. Is it not then preposterous advantages of the Establishment; they to suppose that thirty united voices in an know that the bonds of ecclesiastical deluassembly of more than 400 persons can sion which have bound the powers of have any controlling influence? Does not human reason for past centuries, are now |