› ask the Senate to inquire into the existence of this propaganda. ut certainly the representations of others have played a large part 1 the conclusions that I have drawn, a considerable part.

Senator MCFARLAND. I have just one or two other questions that want to ask. Now, Senator, the main reason that you object to hese pictures is that they do not coincide with your views in regard ɔ the foreign situation; is not that a fact?

Senator NYE. No; that would be a very unfair statement or concluion, Senator. It does not go to that at all.

Senator MCFARLAND. Let us see how far you would go. Let us supDose, for instance, for the sake of argument-of course you would not dmit this-that Hitler is all that those on the other side, who differ with you, claim that he is.

Senator NYE. Just what is the meaning of that question, Senator? Are you trying to have me disagreeing with the kind of man that this man Hitler is?

Senator MCFARLAND. I am trying to find out what you think he is. Let us suppose that there are people who believe that Hitler is conquering nations on the other side according to a definite plan.

Senator NYE. That is right.

Senator MCFARLAND. And that those nations are conquered because each one of them refused to believe that?

Senator NYE. I do not agree with you at all that that is the reason for their having fallen.

Senator MCFARLAND. You do not agree with that?

Senator NYE. Not at all.

Senator MCFARLAND. Let us suppose just for the sake of argumentI do not expect you to agree with me, and that is the reason I tried to state a hypothetical case let us suppose that is the reason; let us suppose that the United States, in the event that Great Britain falls, is on Hitler's list; that those facts really exist, that the American people are not awake as to the fact and as to the necessity of giving aid to Great Britain to prevent her from falling: then would you complain of propaganda or information, or call it what you will, being used to arouse the people to the necessity for giving aid to Great Britain in order to save the United States from being taken by Hitler?

Senator NYE. If it reached the point where Mr. Hitler was ready to pay us a call and dropped his card at our door, I am sure that we would be at war and that a virtually unanimous Congress would have voted a declaration of war, following which it would behoove every American to whip himself up into as high a war spirit as possible to the end that we could do the most successful kind of a job of prosecuting that

war.

Senator MCFARLAND. I want to make one thing plain, Senator, and that is that I am not doubting your sincerity for one moment. Senator NYE. I am sure you are not.

Senator MCFARLAND. I have said many times that you are just as sincere in your belief and are just as much entitled to your belief as those of us on the other side are entitled to our belief. But, on the other hand, how about the moving-picture industry? Do they not have a right to have a little belief in this situation?'

Senator NYE. Certainly; they have all the right in the world to any belief that they want to entertain; but they are taking a tremendous

63855-41-pt. 1-5

advantage of the American people when they take from money to pay for admission to be entertained and then find with propaganda being thrown at them, the cause of which t be in sympathy with in toto; but when the American people to be entertained they have a large right to pass upon whet they must be made the subject of the particular opinions or interests of those who produce the pictures.

Senator MCFARLAND. All right. Let us go back to your o ment. You stated, I believe, that the majority of the pe against these war pictures and that they were not paying? Senator NYE. No. I furnished for the record the report taken, revealing, according to that poll, a four-to-one opinio Senator MCFARLAND. Then that would indicate that the public, even agreeing to your point of view, is able to know a stand propaganda when it sees it, and that there is no dange

Senator NYE. Yes; pretty well-oh, no; I would not say is no danger from it. I have talked to too many very intellig icans who have revealed how even upon them a picture has mendous influence for a moment at least. I know of a ve opinion held by a Member of the Senate who has a daughter been brought up in that nonintervention atmosphere, but w home from the motion-picture theater with an inclination to with the old man, if I may put it that way, on this idea of tion and nonintervention.

Senator MCFARLAND. Well, there are a lot of daughters tha in this day and time, are there not?

Senator NYE. I expect so.

Senator MCFARLAND. Now, Senator, as far as I am concerne the utmost confidence in the American people and in their judge propaganda and that which is not propaganda; their judge that which is based upon facts and that which is not ba facts, and when you say to any industry that you cannot sho you cannot show that because it is propaganda, who is goin whether it is propaganda or not? You have got to set up so you are going to legislate

Senator NYE (interposing). Senator, there is not any iss There is an admission by the industry that many of these pic propaganda and that propaganda has been injected into the so far as their effect on the people is concerned, I would re Senator that it was not so many months ago since he had wh to entertain, namely, large confidence in the ability of the people to resist propaganda, to know it when they see it. cannot erase from my memory that not many months ago a ver artist went on the air with a program portraying, of all bombardment of the city of New York from Mars; and the his record revealed that people moved away from their radio ins that night and ran out of doors to find open spots or sought realistic was the portrayal of the bombardment. I know th one goes into a theater his guard is down, as most of our gu down when we go there wanting to be entertained. I do n why we are so sure that these propaganda motion pictures going to take hold and have a very lasting effect upon a lot o can people.

Senator MCFARLAND. We in Arizona did not run when they gave hat entertainment.

Senator NYE. We did not in North Dakota, either.

Senator MCFARLAND. But the point that I was trying to make was his, that if you are going to say what is propaganda and what is not ropaganda, the minute you do that they are going to point out the langer of controlling propaganda and the channels that you would ave it controlled in and the lines along which you would control it. Senator NYE. Senator, recognizing the dangers attendant upon any orm of censorship, I stated this morning a fear of it. I stated my own onviction that motion-picture censorship was no more desirable than s newspaper censorship desirable; and if it be argued, as it can be, and is I would myself have to argue it, the law and the Constitution are against any play toward censorship of newspapers or moving pictures or anything else. If there is found no other way of stopping an influence that is so devastating upon American thinking-an influence that is destructive of our economy, destructive of our form of governmentI would remind the Senator that the people always have access to the right to change that Constitution. I am not saying this as a threat; I am not advancing it as a legislative move in connection with this investigation-the thought of a constitutional amendment. That is farther from me. I am only reciting that that power is with the people. Senator MCFARLAND. Of course, I am one of those who feel that freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press are the very foundation of our Government.

SenatorNYE. So do I.

Senator MCFARLAND. And should never be changed.

Senator NYE. So do I. But we never dreamed, and the framers never dreamed, of the power that might some day accrue to a few to shape our thinking as might one day prevail right here in our own midst.

Senator MCFARLAND. You spoke of newspaper reports. This morning you expressed some dissatisfaction with the fact that some editor had criticized your speech at St. Louis, and I believe the chairman said he would call him in here. Do you not think he had a right to do that? Senator NYE. I am not aware of the fact that I criticized any editor or anyone for having criticized me. I remember several rather outstanding examples of the most violent kind of misrepresentation of fact and of purpose.

Senator TOBEY. I think he refers to Dr. Sherman, president of some college, of whom you spoke this morning.

Senator NYE. My objection was not to any criticism that Dr. Sherman may have offered.

Senator TOBEY. It was to the misrepresentation of your St. Louis speech.

Senator NYE. It was the complete and utter misrepresentation of fact. Senator MCFARLAND. If we bring in everyone that criticizes or does not place an interpretation that satisfies us

Senator NYE (interposing). Senator, if that is going to be your line of thinking, why does not the moving-picture industry give to those who disagree with what the motion-picture industry is doing a chance to produce an opposite theory-an answering belief and opinion that is entertained? You cannot do that. I would not ask them to do that.

Senator MCFARLAND. Along that line I am told that here on the screen in Washington they have Senator Brooks in the news reel mak ing a speech-what we generally term an "isolationist" speech. Senator NYE. I bet it is a good speech.

Senator BROOKS. May I interrupt, now that you have brought my name into this? That was a fact, but it suddenly became a fact that they wanted to take a speech of mine after I was put on this committee, never before. I was not put on this committee at my request-merely as a Member of the Senate to try to get some facts. So that if you are going to use that as an example, it is a rather late example.

Senator MCFARLAND. I am also informed that Senator Wheeler has been on the screen, in news reels, at numerous times giving speeches. I have not seen them, but I am informed as to that.

I believe I have no further questions.

Senator CLARK of Idaho. If there are no further questions, would 10:30 be a little more convenient hour tomorrow morning, if we start on time?

Mr. WILLKIE. That would be helpful.

Senator CLARK of Idaho. All right. Let us make it 10: 30 tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 4:05 p. m., a recess was taken until tomorrow, Wednesday, September 10, 1941, at 10:30 a. m.)

MOVING-PICTURE SCREEN AND RADIO PROPAGANDA

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1941

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, at 10:15 a. m., in the caucus room, Senate Office Building, Senator D. Worth Clark presiding.

Present: Senators Clark of Idaho (chairman of the subcommittee), McFarland, Tobey, and Brooks.

Present also: Senators Lee, Kilgore, Wiley, and White.

Senator CLARK of Idaho (chairman of the subcommittee). The subcommittee will please come to order. At the outset this morning I want to state that the spectators are of course welcome here. This is a public hearing and we welcome all that the room will conveniently accommodate. However, I want to advise the spectators that they are here by the courtesy of the subcommittee and are welcome as such. The subcommittee does not intend to be unduly severe in its rules as regards these proceedings, but undue applause and demonstrations by spectators have a tendency to interrupt and bring disorder in these very serious proceedings. Consequently, I am going to request, on behalf of the subcommittee, that undue demonstration be avoided as much as possible by those who are here to witness the proceedings of this subcommittee.

Unless any other member of the subcommittee has something to say, the first witness, and very likely the only witness today to be called by the subcommittee, is Senator Bennett Champ Clark of Missouri. Senator Clark, do you care to be sworn?

Senator CLARK of Missouri. Yes; I prefer to be sworn.

Senator CLARK of Idaho. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Senator CLARK of Missouri. I do.

Senator CLARK of Idaho. You may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF BENNETT CHAMP CLARK, SENIOR SENATOR FROM MISSOURI

Senator MCFARLAND. I want to say again that I am protesting against the swearing of United States Senators. I think that a United States Senator should have the privilege of appearing before a Senate committee without being sworn; and, of course, he was sworn in before he took his seat in the Senate.