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SENATE.]

Donations to Deaf and Dumb Institutions.

(Arnil 5, 1830.

your officers?

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But, sir, you propose to effect this economical reform, stitutions already incorporated. If we make an approprihow? By cutting down the institutions of the country, and ation for one State, why not, he asked, extend the proriby suspending all internal improvements; by changing sions of the bill to all the States where these institutions thie policy of the Government.

are incorporated? You propose to dismiss, without ceremony, a large mum. Mr. DICKERSON replied in the affirmative. ber of officers of the navy, who have devoted their lives Mr. MARKS stated, that, in Pennsylvania, the institu. to your service; and this is the economy. And do you be. tion was incorporated by the Legislature many years ago, lieve the people will justify this violation of the rights of and possesses an annuity of eight thousand dollars. There

Sir, I agree to increase their rank and were seventy-five pupils now maintained and educated in pay, and to reduce the establishment by accidental va- it, some of whom were from New Jersey and Maryland. cancies, but never to confer the power of removal, and By the last census it appeared there were five hundred of then give, as proposed, power to the President to increase this unfortunate class of persons for whom this institution the number.

was designed, in the State of Pennsylvania alone. Sir, my colleague has stated at full length all the reforms Mr. KING said he would move to recommit the bill, which have been introduced; on his own statement they with instructions to embrace in its provisions all the States amount to very little. The money has been drawn from which are now omitted. He could not see why Congress the treasury for forty years, in a mode regulated by law should be called upon to legislate, session after session, and custom; no loss has been sustained; none apprehend- for individual States. If it be the intention to continue ed; and now it is said, and with some pride, that another such appropriations, why confine them to particular Sintes? check has been found out to guard against what has never He moved to recommit the bill, to include all the States happened.

which now are in, and which may hereafter be admitted Sir, I made no charge of extravagance; I passed no into, the Union. censure except upon the report, which I felt it my duty Mr. SANFORD said the bill would be lost for this sesto expose, because I know such desperate expedients, sion, if now recommitted, as proposed by the gentleman even if they have momentary success in deceiving the from Alabama, and lie hoped, atthough he was favorable people, will always recoil upon their authors. I think no to its objects, that he (Mr. Kixg) would not press his mostatesman should descend into that arena. The great clis- tion. If the bill be reported agreeably to the instructions, it tinctive difference between parties and those who admin- may come before us too late to be acted upon. He therefore ister the Government, are principles, and the character hoped the gentleman would consent to let it pass as it is. and talents of those who personate the principles and re Mr. BARTON moved to strike out all after the enactpresent the parties in the administration of the affairs of ing clause, and insert a substitute embracing all the States the country. It is to this issue evey contest between ho- not already provided for by such grants. norable men should be brought. We should address the Mr. KING said the amendment offered by Mr. Bantos understanding of the wise and the good, not the passions perfectly answered the objects he had in view, and he or the prejudices of the weak or the ignorant.

would therefore withdraw his motion. I have advocated every scheme for the better organiza Mr. BARNARD agreed to the propriety of the propotion of the Executive departments, every bill for improv-sition of Mr. Bartox, but thought the better course to ing the operations of the Government. I will go into pursue would be, to give these donations of lands to the every expenditure; introduce economy where it can be states which have already incorporated institutions of this done; retrenchment where it is necessary; but, let the character, and to defer providing for other States until merit be in the reformations, not in vain protestations and they shall have also chartered institutions. Although he empty promises; not in making reform the jest and the was favorable to the objects of the amendment, yet, as its scorn of the people.

only tendency now would be to embarrass the bill, he Mr. JOHNSTON here gave way, and the Senate ad. hoped it would be rejected. journed over to Monday.

Mr. McKINLEY said that, so far from the amendment

embarrassing the bill, it would relieve it from all embarMONDAY, APRIL 5, 1830.

rassment, as the disposition of it would tend to establish DONATIONS TO DEAF & DUMB INSTITUTIONS.

one of two principles in relation to the bill itself; that is,

whether the principle of it should be adopted as a general On motion of Mr. MARKS, the bill making an appro- principle, or rejected altogether. This ought to be done; priation of a township of land for the support of the New and if it is right to appropriate thus for one State, it is York Institution for the education of the Deaf and Dum!), right for all; and if it is not right for all, it is not right for was taken up for consideration.

It would be incorrect to legislate in favor of any The question being on the amendment heretofore pro-one State, as it is certain that in all the States there are posed by Mr. MARKS, to embrace within the provisions some deaf and dumb people in proportion to the populaof the bill the institutions in the States of Pennsylvania tion of each. Let the principle be tested, he said: he and North Carolina,

would vote for the amendment, as it would have that effect. Mr. BURNET suggested the propriety of including the Mr. LIVINGSTON considered it his duty to espress State of Ohio, which had petitionel for a similar appro- his sentiments on this bill. By it, it is intended to make priation to the Deaf and Dumb Asylum of that State: an appropriation of the public lands for the support of in

Mr. MARKS accepted the proposition as a part of his st tutions of private charity in individual States. That was amendment.

the object of the bill, and nothing else; and looking to Mr. DICKERSON expressed a hope that his State (New that constitution which all are so anxious to

preserve, Jersey) would be added to the provisions of the bill. would ask (said Mr. L.) from what part of the constitu

Mr. BURNET said he would not offer any objections to tion this authority is derived, which the bill proposes to this proposition. He remarked, that, to avoid the trouble exercise. These are public lands, to be sure; but our of introducing separate bills in relation to each particular obligations in the disposition of them, are the same as in State, it would be well to embrace all which had institu- the appropriation of the funds of the country. The contions of this nature, already chartered, and now in full stitution says we shall dispose of the public funds for the operation.

general welfare. Of this, there are two constructions: Mr. KING inquired of Mr. DICKERSON, whether a one is, that these appropriations shall be made under cer Deaf and Dumb Institution had been chartered by the Le- tain expressed powers in the constitution, which (Mr. L; gislature of New Jersey, as this bill was intended for in- said] was his construction; and the other was the liberal

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APRIL 5, 1830.]
Donations to Deaf and Dumb Institutions.

(SENATE. doctrine---that Congress has the power to appropriate for what was to be done with that surplus? Are not the lands purposes not inimical to the constitution. The public which the States of Georgia and Virginia ceded to the lancis are intended for the benefit of all--for the common United States to be then appropriated for the common benefit. Where, he asked, was the difference between benefit of all, including the States themselves? In addithe objects for which the public lands and the public funds tion to the Virginia and Georgia grants, the United States were intended? The common benefit and the general purchased lands from foreign Governments. All diese are welfare appeared to 'im to be synonymous. What, then, to be appropriated for the use and benefit of all. When are the objects of this bill? One gentleman proposes to give a surplus shall be left, after the public debt is paid, how is. a township of the public lands to one State-next it is pro- it to be disposed of? The gentleman from Louisiana (Mr. posed to include three other States; and lastly, the gentle Livingston) is in favor of appropriating the public lands man from Alabama (Mr. King] proposes to extend the for purposes of internal tmprovement when applied to naprovisions of the bill to all the States of the Union, and tional objects. There will be more difficulty in deriving to those which may in future be admitted into it. Where, from the constitution the power to effect these objects he asked, was the authority for this, but in those general to determine on the objects which will answer the descripwords in the constitution, the common benefit?" Wetion of national ones, than the power which he now denies cannot (said Mr. L.) make this appropriation under sucinto Congress. Mr. McK. then briefly recapitulated his ara power; and if we can do it, my ideas of the constitution guments. have been hitherto grossly erroneous. My idea is, that Mr. BARTON said that the power proposed to be exsuch subjects ought to be left to the care of the States ercised here was the same as that under which the 16th themselves; that the public lands are entrusted to us to be section of each township of public land was granted for disposed, not for the purpose of relieving poverty and seminaries of public learning. Some call this a compact, distress, but for general, and not for particular purposes. and others an exercise of the legislation of Congress. In one State, suppose there are a certain number of des- But suppose (said Mr. B.) it is a compact, we receive an titute people, and in another State a certain number of equivalent: for we can ask no higher compensation for deaf and dumh; are we to provide for each of these class these donations than the education of the deaf and dumb. cs! And if for only one class, I would be glad to know Education he conceived to be the highest order of nawhat part of the constitution points out the distinction. Iftional compensation, and a compensation of a great and this bill is to be adopted, then shall we become the super- noble character, considering the unfortunate but interestintendents of the domestic concerns of the States. I would ing objects for whose education the appropriation is inbe glad to know (continued Mr. L.] why we should make tended. Mr. B. said, he did not think it necessary to go an appropriation for the support of a deaf and dumb in into the constitutional argument, but he was not aware that stitution in New Jersey, and not of a marine hospital in any greater constitutional objections could be urged against any seaport town in the United States.

this bill than the bill making an appropriation of public Mr. L. stated the course he had always pursued in re- lands for the carrying on of public works in Alabama was ference to the disposition of the public lands, although it liable to, which had just passed the Senate. vas possible he may have had, in some instances, unknown Mr. LIVINGSTON said his arguments had not been an. to himself

, raried from it. With respect to the new States, swered by the gentleman from Alabama; and having rehe considered it was a duty Congress had to perform--peated them, he proceeded to notice what had fallen from which it was obliged to perform by the terms of the dona- that gentleman." He admitted, with him, that the States tions of these public lands—to appropriate what was ne- have declared that the public lands should be applied for cessary to carry on the operations of these States. Next the common benefit of all, including that of each State, he considered' it necessary to give them public lands for and that each State, in relinquishing its lands to the Unitthe maintenance of their public institutions, because ed States, had an ulterior motive--after the public debt We possess those lands, and have conseqently stopped should have been paid, after the debt of the Revolution the sources whence they would draw taxes to enable should have been discharged--namely, its own peculiar them to support these institutions. Therefore (Mr. L. advantage. But he [Mr. McKinley] had asked what disposaid] he always gave his vote in favor of appropri- sition ought to be made of the surplus, after the debt is ations for any reasonable purpose, when required by the paid. To this question, Mr. L. said he would answer, States in which the lands lie. He also would vote, and had first, to relieve the people of all their taxes, if the reveFoted, for any measure which, in his judgment, would nue derived from the public lands would be sufficient for have the effect of improving the value of the public lands. the support of Government. We have now two hundred The more facilities which were afforded for the improve- millions of acres of public lands, which, at the rate of two ment of these lands, by canals, roads, &c. the more he dollars, would yield us four hundred millions of dollars; thought the public treasure would be increased. Mr. L. the interest of which would be sufficient to carry on the concluded by saying he could not, in his conscience, vote operations of Government. This would be a new era in for the bill, or for any of the modifications proposed, howe- Governinent; a people living without paying, and a Gover laudable and just he admitted the objects of them to be. vernment existing without the support of, taxes. Here

Mr. McKINLEY said his object was to test the sense of said Mr. L.) is a proposition to appropriate for a poorthe Senate on the principle of the bill. He proceeded to house in one State, and another proposition for the same reply to the arguments of Mr. Livingston, and contend-in all the States; and these objects are said to be for the ed that on Congress devolved the power of giving a con- common benefit. If this system is persevered in, we shall struction to the constitution. He argued that the power have no limits to the exercise of this power but our own of Congress, as to the appropriation of the public lands, good will and pleasure. Mr. L. denied the analogy was, that the lands should be disposed of for the common contended for by the gentleman from Missouri, (Mr. Barbenefit of all the States, including the State making the tox) between this case and that making appropriations for grant of these lands to the United States. He asked if public seminaries in the new States. He said he would the gentleman from Louisiana believed the proper con- vote against the bill. He saw the length to which Construction of the words “common benefit,” in the constitu- gress would be obliged to go if the principle were adopt. tion, was that appropriations of the public lands should be ed. Establish the principle of it, and hereafter it will be made to the United States only. These lands were given quoted as a precedent for measures which will require a to the United States by the states to aid in paying off the more extensive construction of the powers of Congress debt of the revolutionary war. When that clebt shall be than even now is advocated. No answer can then be gipaid, and a surplus shall be found remaining, he asked ven to such an argument; but all will be swept away by

SENATE.]
Donations to Deaf and Dumb Institutions.

(APRIL 5, 1830. the doctrines of general construction. Then the powers Mr. B. said that he would then suggest an idea which he of the State Governments will all be consolidated here, hoped would be in order, and applicable to the argument and the next step will be to a monarchy: for consolida. of the gentleman from Louisiana. Jupiter and Juno (and tion and monarchy are inseparable.

when he mentioned Homer he did not mean to quote Mr. MARKS said that this bill introduced no new prin- him, although, if he happened to misquote, it would be ciple. There were many precedents for it. He instanced more excusable than the misquotation of Shakspeare in the appropriation, made in 1818, for the support of the relation to Banquo's ghost)-- Jupiter and Juno, he reConnecticut Asylum for the deaf and dumb, and that pealed, are always, when introduced by Homer on any made in 1826 to a similar institution in Kentucky. That important occasion, concealed in impenetrable darkness, was the time, he said, to have raised an opposition to the that they cannot be recognized by those against whom principle, and not now. He instanced also the appropria- the celestial arins are raised. This is the mode to adopt, tion of ten thousand dollars to the sufferers of Alexandria to enable the President to establish a monarchy. Now, by the fire which some years ago took place there. There with great deference, (said Mr. B.] I consider that illus. was no difference, he thought, between appropriating the tration as pat to my purpose. As to the constitution, that proceeds of the public lands directly, and the lands them- is a res adjudicata--it is settled ; and if we have trespassselves, as in this case is proposed. That appropriation of ed beyond its limits, there is a restraining power in the the public money was made unanimously. He viewed Judiciary. this case as the gentleman from Missouri, (Mr. Barton] Mr. HAYNE said, whenever he heard the constitution that we should adopt this bill on the same principle that mentioned on the floor, he knew at once what its fate we make appropriations of public lands for the support would be—that it would be voted down. He rememberof schools in the new States. We liave (said Mr. M.] ed that a venerable Senator from North Carolina formerly passed a bill appropriating three hundred thousand dollars said that the constitution was dead and buried. He profor the benefit of Alabama, to aid her in making internal nounced its funeral discourse, and it would be now as improvements, on the ground that it is also for the benefit impossible for human talent to revive it, as it is for man of the United States. Would any one venture to say that to raise the dead. The gentleman from Louisiana need the object of this bill is not more national and more for not expect to succeed. He (Mr. H.] did not rise to dis. the common benefit than improvements in Alabama? He cuss the question, but to remark what will be the natural said he would vote for the bill, as it established no new consequences of this decision. He was glad that the genprinciple.

tleman from Alabama moved to carry out the principle Mr. McKINLEY and Mr. LIVINGSTON again ad- of the bill to its legitimate consequences. He proposed, dressed the Senate, severally stating and explaining their if an appropriation is to be made to one State, that it be views in relation to the bill.

extended to all. That was just, fair, and honorable. He Mr. BARTON said he rose to answer one part of the would be glad the provisions of the bill had been extendargument of the gentleman from Louisiana; he referred ed farther, so as to embrace every charity in the country, to what he (Mr. L.) said, in case this bill should pass: that and to give each a township. This is the true questionprecedent would be followed by precedent, until our the length, depth, and breadth of the principle. What Government would become a consolidation of the powers difference should be made between a community and a of the States; that the republic would be overthrown, and State? It is said, nothing can be more elevated in a a monarchy substituted, and finally perhaps it would end national point of view than to extend the blessings of in a despotism or in anarchy. That is not the process, education; but why not also make appropriations for lu. [said Mr. B.) that is not the route which the Government natic asylums? why not provide for the aged and poor? will take in removing from republicanism to despotisn. He did not allude, of course, to the army and navy, (that He would here remark, that, if Congress stept beyond the was a different question) but to the age and destitute of powers granted by the constitution, we have the judiciary the United States. Could any thing be more god-like than branch to correct us, and confine us within our constitu- to relieve them? Why not include, also, alms houses, tional limits. But the gentleman from Louisiana did not and go on through all the circles of public and private state the proper process by which this Government may calamities? arrive ut inonarchy or despotism. Permit me to suggest The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Manks) said (said Mr. B.) what I conceive to be the certain order of we had given donations to people who suffered by fire in effecting this change. It is to render the Executive unre. Alexandria, and asked, should any difference be made in strained and uncontrolled in his prerogatives. He was appropriations of land ard money.

And are we thus not going to argue now the removing power of the Pre- (asked Mr. H.) to provide for persons who have suffered sident, nor was he going to move to take up the resolu. from the elements, by land or sca--for all who have met tions he offered a few days ago on that question, but he with misfortune-are all to be provided for? What will was proceeding to suggest what he deemed a more likely this end in? The United States will then have jurisdiction way to arrive at despotism than Mr. L. had done.

It is of all charities in the country, and next be called upon to what General Washington called a “combination,” that make appropriations for them. He said he did not mean would rally round a military leader, dazzling the popula- to go into the constitutional question, but to state the tion by his achievements. The next step would be to principle which we must act upon hereafter, if this billis have a Senate, (or some body having the name by which passed. Precedents have been quoted to support the bill, that body in France corresponding to a Senate is called) which in turn will become precedent for another exercise that could be driven from its post, and say that the Pre-of a greater power. He wished to explain the responsisident cannot be held responsible, till the end of his term, bility which gentlemen would have to act under in sup; for any unconstitutional exercise of his power; that then porting the bill, and on the third reading of it he would is the proper time to call him to an account. As if the call for the yeas and nays. people did not know that the whole mischief was done Mr. FOOT asked a division of the amendment. He during the exertion of his power--as if the people did not wished to separate the appropriations for institutions know that this was but a new version of the old story-- already chartered from those intended for future institu“shutting the stable door after the horse was stolen,” or tions. like the administering of medicine to a dead person. This, The question on the several amendments was put, and too, to be told, by way of enabling the people--

decided in the affirmative. [The VICE PRESIDENT said the question betore the Mr. McKINLEY moved an amendment going to make Senate was not the exercise of the Executive powers.] it the daty of the Secretary of the Treasury to select from

APRIL 6, 7, 1830.)

The Indians.-- Pursers in the Navy.

(SENATH.

among the lands subject to entry at private sale the town. according to the rank of the vessel in the line. A disship of land granted to any State within which such lands tinction is also proposed to b: made between their pay may lie; which was agreed to.

while at sea, or on land service. Those regulations have Mr. BARTON then moved to add to the bill and the been made on just and moderate principles. The Secreinstitutions hereafter incorporated shall sell said town- tary of the Navy is authorized to make such other regu. ships within five years after their incorporation;" which lations as he may consider necessary to give full effect to was also agreed to.

the provisions of the bill. These views which he had Mr. NOBLE, with a view to afford the Senate further expressed, Mr. H. said, were concurred in by the Comtime for reflection on the amendments, moved that they missioners of the Navy, and it was believed, if acted upon, should be printed, and, with the bill, laid on the table; would promote the comfort of the crews of our armed which was agreed to-ayes 25.

vessels; would prevent abuses, and save money to the country.

Mr. HOLMES inquired why the supplies should not be TUESDAY, APRIL 6, 1830.

distributed to the officers and crews at the invoice prices THE INDIANS.

of them, since it was proposed by the bill to give a per On motion by Mr. WHITE, the bill to providie for an annum compensation to the pursers, and why ten per exchange of lands with the Indians residing in any of the cent. was fixed upon as an advance upon them? States or Territories, and for their removal west of the Mr. HAYNE replied, that the committee experienced river Mississippi, was considered in Committee of the some difficulty in settling this matter, as suggested by Whole; and

the gentleman from Maine. Vie considered the per centum Mr. WHITE, who reported the bill, expla ned its ob- fixed upon as just and necessary: for, suppose (said Mr. dict, and, anticipating objections, he discussed at large H.] the United States ought not to make any thing in furthe rights of the Indians, the rights of the States, and the nishing the supplies, was it not known that many articles power of the General Government, in reference to the of sea stores were perishable? The committee doubted right of the former to self-government within the limits of whether ten per cent would be sufficient to meet contina sovereign State, against the will of such State, &c. gent losses.

Some thought that fifteen or twenty per Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN then rose, and said that he cent. would be little enough. desired to make some remarks on the subject of the bill, Mr. FOOT remarked, that the compensation to purbut, as he was much indisposed, and it was now late, he sers, as specified in the fourth section of the bill, was difwould more an adjournment.

ferent,

It is proposed to give a purser on board of a ship At the request of Mr. McKINLEY, Mr. F. drew his of the line at the rate of two thousand five hundred dol. motion, and Mr. Mck. moved to add to the 4th section less a year; on board of 1 frigate, two thousand dollars; these words:

on board of a sloop of war, one thousand six hundred dol“ And, upon the payment of such valuation, the im-lars; and on board of any other vessel, one thousand three provements so valued and paid for shall pass to the United hundred dollars. Mr. F. said he knew no reason why a States, and possession shall not afterwards be permitted purser of a ship of the line, who has the best accommoto any of the same tribe.”

dations, who undergoes no more risk than, and is liable After some conversation between Messrs. FORSYTH, only to the same penalty as, the purser of a frigate, should SPRAGUE, and McKINLEY, on the effect intended by have a larger compensation; nor, on the same principle, the amendment, and before the question on the amendi- could he see why the purser of a slop of war should ment was taken, an adjournment took place.

have a smaller compensation than the purser of a frigate.

In small vessels, in vessels less than half the size, and WEDNESDAY, APRIL 7, 1830.

less than half the crew of a ship of the line, the penalty

and risk were the same. If the object is to pay for serPAY OF PURSERS IN THE NAVY.

vices, they are all entitled to the same sum. The bill "regulating the duties and providing for the Mr. HAYNE said that the compensation was intended compensation of pursers in the navy” being taken up for to be graduated on the responsibility and trust of the pura second reading,

Is it not manifest that, in a large ship, the trouble Mr. HAYNE, in explanation of the bill, stated the and responsibility will be double that of a small vessel? practice, which now prevails, of furnishing supplies to It was this consideration which suggested the discriminathe officers and crews of the public armed vessels of the tion in their salaries. Whenever pursers are on shore United States. The present mode of making the usual in the discharge of their duty at a navy yard or station, the supplies is, said he, from the stores of the pursers, who bill provides that they shall receive the same pay as purdistribute and make the necessary purchases on their sers on board a frigate; and, while absent on leave, or Own account. This practice tends to profuseness, as waiting orders, or absent on furlough, they shall receive the purser is induced to pass off as much as he possibly the same allowances made to lieutentants under the same can, no matter at how high a price he may lay his stores circumstances. These were the views of the Committee up. There were many other abuses, which, taken al- on Naval Affairs, and were recommended by the Navy together, render a change necessary, and it is to remedy Commissioners as judicious regulations. these evils in the system that the bill is recommended. Mr. FOOT observed, in reference to that part of the It is proposed that the supplies usually furnished by fourth section which provides that each purser shall repursers, shall be in future laid in by Government, under ceive the same pay as when on board of his ship, while the direction of the Navy Department, and shall be settling his accounts at the seat of government, that, as committed to the care of the purser of the ship, who is the expenses were equal, the compensation ought to be to furnish them to the officers and crui, according to the the same. acc istomed mode of requisition, and at an advance of ten Mr. HAYNE said it was intended to suppose the conper cent. upon the prime cost of such supplies. Pursers timuance of the cruise, at the end of the cruise; to con. are required to account, and are held respons.ble for all sider the purser, with respect to his compensation, still supplies confided to their care; and they are also bound on a cruise, as his labor and responsibility were the same. to give such security as will be satisfactory to the Secre. If the first principle (graduating the pay of pursers) was tary of the Navy for the faithful performance of their a correct one, then this followed as a legitimate conseduties. Therill proposes to change the compensation of quence. pursers to a fixed annual salary, which is to be graduated Mr. HOLMES said he was not satisfied with these

VOL. VI.--- 39

sels.

SENATE.)

Pursers in the Navy.

(Aprel 7, 1830.

reasons.

ei's.

If the purser of a large ship was longer settling tee had fixed upon the graduation of the pay proposed his accounts than the purser of a small vessel, then there in the bill as recommended by the Navy Commissionought to be no discrimination.

He considered the rates were reasonable, and Mr. HAYNE, in reply, referred the gentleman to the showed they were proportioned as nearly as could be to proviso in the fourth section of the bill, which limits the the trouble and responsibility incurred by the respective time of remaining at the seat of government to one officers. month.

The amendment was negatived. Mr. DICKERSON said the bill proposed to allow Mr. FOOT moved to amend the same section so as to pursers absent on leave, waiting orders, or on a furlough, reduce the salary of a purser of a ship of the line from the same pay and allowances made to lieutenants under two thousand five hundred dollars to two thousand dollars, the same circumstances. He wished to know what lieu- being the salary proposed for a purser of a frigate. tenants did receive.

Mr. HAYNE opposed this amendment. He said there Mr. HAYNE replied that they received half pay. could be r.o better reason for reducing the salary of a

Mr. DICKERSON said that abuses in this respect pre- purser of a ship of the line to that of the purser of a vailed. He considered the allowance proposed to be frigate, than there is for reducing the latter to that of a given to pursers while in the navy yard, was too great. sloop of war. He dwelt again on the necessity of giving He submitted that such compensation to pursers, while an excess of compensation equivalent to the greater denot on actual service, was tuo great.

gree of trouble and responsibility attached to the office Mr. HAINE said, motives of economy suggested this of purser of a large vessel. The greater number of the provision. The moment they come on shore they are crew of large vessels he adduced as an additional reason attached to the navy yard, and, while absent on furlough, why regard should be had to the consequent labor that they are to receive the same as lieutenants, who receive must be undergone. but five hundred dollars while absent, &c.

It was indis.

Mr. FOOT considered that the pay of pursers ought pensable to allow them something while not at sea, in not to be greater than that of the commanding officers of order to keep up their connexion with the navy. This, the navy. (said Mr. H.] is doing nothing more than we ought to do. Mr. SMITII, of Maryland, said there was no principle The abuses referred to by Mr. D. would be corrected whatever in the amendment. Take the case of collectors under the bill, as the Secretary of the Navy was thus em- in New York and Baltimore; in the former place the col. powered.

lector has double the responsibility, and double the salary, Mr. DICKERSON did not believe it was necessary to After a few observations from Ir. FOOT in reply, pay them so much for the purpose of keeping up their The question on the amendment was decided in the connexion with the navy: They will willingly remain in negative. the ranks without it, and he thought it was improper to Mr. DICKERSON said he was opposed to the differpay them while off duty. That a whole corps should be ence of compensation proposed in the bill when pursers paid at all times when out of service he could not agree, are at sea and on shore. The bill proposes to give them, and would therefore vote against the provision.

when discharging their duties at the navy yard, the same Mr. FOOT moved to amend that part of the bill fix- pay as pursers of frigates. He considered this too much; ing the compensation for pursers, while settling their ac- the difference of the service did not justify such a comcounts at the seat of government, so that each purser pensation. He moved to reduce the sum to the pay of should, in that case, have the pay of a purser of a sloop pursers of sloops of war. of war.

Here there was no differénce in the responsi Mr. WOODBURY, admiting the responsibility to be less bility of any, and he thought the compensation of all in such cases, did not object to the reduction, on the part should be the same.

of the Committee on Naval Affairs, Mr. HAYNE said he would not object to this amend. The amendment was agreed to. ment. The argument was strong that the compensa Mr. DICKERSON moved to strike out the words " and tion of all should be as their troubles are, the same. The while absent on leave, or waiting orders, or absent on furrate of a sloop of war was a fair medium between a ship lough, they (pursers) shall receive the same pay and aland a schooner.

lowances made to lieutenants under the sune circum. The amendment was agreed to.

He thought that paying them while not in serMr. FOOT said there was great inequality, if not injus- vice was too much like pensioning. He moved the amendtice, in graduating the pay of pursers as proposed in the ment to try the sense of the Senate on it, although he fourth section of the bill. If a purser of a frigate is to was aware of the necessity of keeping them connected have two thousand dollars, why should so wide a distinc. with the navy. tion be made between the purser of a ship of the line, Mr. SILSBEE expressed a hope that the amendment who is to receive two thousand five hundred dollars, and would not prevail, unless it was the intention of gentle. of a sloop of war, who is to receive only one thousand six men to drive them out of the service at once. They hundred dollars? I presume, (said Mr.F.ja purser on board ought (said Mr. S.] to be kept in connexion with the nao of a sloop of war, on the West India station, would have vy, and if you agree to this proposition, the consequence great reason to complain; for although there is more re. will be, they must quit the service.

He trusted the sponsibility as to the issuing of the supplies, yet on the Senate would not adopi it: for, if we do, we may as well bond there is the same responsibility.

say to them at once, “ go-léave the service." He did Pursers ought not to be reduced in rank; but there may not consider their proposed pay as more than reasonable be pursers who have been long in the service in small and just. vessels, and he therefore thought so great a distinction as Mr. DICKERSON said he woull withdraw his amcndthis ought not to be kept up.

ment, though he did not think it required so large Mr. F. moved to amend the bill, so that, instead of giv. to keep the pursers in the service. ing, as it now proposes, one thousand six hundred dollar's Mr. HAYNE said, if it had been agreed to, the only to the purser of a sloop of war, “and one thousand three effect of it would be to double the expense of the Gohundred dollars to the purser of any other vessel,” it vernment in this respect: for they would all, of necess: tv, should read, and “ to the purser on board of a sloop of be attached to some navy yard or station, instead of being war” or “ of any other vessel, one thousand five hundred allowed leave of absence, as heretofore. The whole bill dollars per annum."

has been suggested by considerations of reform in the Mr. HAYNE opposed this amendment. The commit-department of the Government.

stances.

stim

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