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to follow the right hon. Gentleman into did not appertain to his Majesty personthe minute details of his plan. Indeed, it ally, but to the diplomatic service of the would be impossible for him or others to country. He did not know why the exdo so immediately after hearing the state-penses of Ambassadors, like the charges ment of the right hon. Gentleman. The for Consuls, should not be annually subject into which he had entered was brought under the view of Parliament, in too extensive to be at once disposed of. order that Parliament might know that He did not think it possible for that House, the Ministers really practised the econoor a committee of the whole House, to go my that was demanded of them. One sufficiently into detail on this subject, to inconvenience among the rest, that would be able to satisfy either the public or arise from the adoption of the right hon. themselves. He was of opinion, that it Gentleman's plan, was, that if the change was absolutely necessary that those mi- he proposed took place, the House would nute details into which the right hon. be in a great state of confusion, part of Gentleman had gone, should be examined the supplies of expenditure being taken in a Select Committee. He was con- from the Civil List, and part from the vinced, that if the House attempted to annual votes of the year. In like manner examine the details of the right hon. Gen- he must say, he could notunderstand why tleman's plan, as they were now stated, it the great Public Officers, the Lords of the would be found that the Members could Treasury, and the other Officers of State, not clearly understand them, and could who had been named together with the come to no satisfactory result. The right right hon. Gentleman himself, should be hon. Gentleman's plan, instead of being a charged upon the Civil List, when their simplified statement of the demands upon salaries might as well be paid with other the Civil List; was a statement more compli- branches of expenditure by an annual cated than ever. The right hon. Gentleman vote of that House. It appeared to him. had added to the difficulty by his plan of that the proposition of the right hon. borrowing from one fund to pay to ano- Gentleman was one which, instead of givther, for the purpose of lessening or in- ing a clear account of the items in the creasing, according to circumstances, the Civil List for the present reign, continued amount of the Civil List. As far as he all that confusion which had previously had been able to follow the plan of the existed, with the exception only of a few right hon. Gentleman, he had not been trifling Amendments. As the vote on able to approve of it in any degree. It this question was not to be taken to-night, would be difficult for the country to un- he would not detain the House further derstand what the House voted if Mem- than by repeating, that he could not bers should consent to the vote in the approve of the plan now brought forward form in which it was proposed, the right by the right hon. Gentleman. hon. Gentleman had placed in it so many Sir H. Parnell addressed the House items of expenditure which did not in the in support of the observations of the noble least belong to the dignity, comfort, or Lord who had just resumed his seat. splendor of the Crown. What was the was compelled however to acknowledge that consequence of this? Why, that if the like the noble Lord he felt the greatest Civil List was voted in the manner now difficulty in following the statement of the proposed, the House would appear to be right hon. Gentleman. The saving he giving to the Crown 970,000l., when, in mentioned was very trifling, and the point of fact, all that the Crown would re- House ought to recollect that the estimate ceive would be found to be comprised in the of the Civil List for 1820, which had been three first of the classes into which the right referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, hon. Gentleman had divided the whole was founded on that made in 1815, which scheme. He should be inclined to say, was monstrously extravagant. The exthat the Civil List of the Crown should penditure of the country was then al extend only to those branches of expen- together too large; and prices were diture which related to the Monarch him- much higher than at present. It seemself. He could not conceive what addi- ed to him impossible for the House tion it was to the splendor, dignity or to come to a decision on the merits of the comfort of his Majesty, to have money opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, paid to him for the mere purpose of without having a further inquiry than it

He

country. When they heard the gracious declaration of his Majesty on the subject of economy, he submitted that the House must show their respect for it, by calling on the Ministers to act in accordance with that declaration. He was perfectly prepared to do all that was necessary to promote the comfort of his Majesty, and to uphold the dignity of the Crown. He was prepared to do that to the fullest extent which the present state of the country would allow, and to act towards his Majesty with the utmost possible degree of liberality. He could not think that the right hon. Gentleman had taken the course they had a right to expect, even on his own showing; for he had referred to reports of committees as the ground on which he submitted his proposition. Re ports on this subject were made in 1803, 1812, and 1815. He would not read them, but he would state the subject of them to the House. While each deplored the gradually increasing charge of the Civil List, they all declared that that increase was unavoidable, because the price of every necessary of life, and every article of expenditure, had increased. The reports referred to the private know ledge of each Member for a confirmation

was now possible for them to make. He thought that the House ought to makea separation between the public and the private expenditure of his Majesty, and not appear to grant him a revenue which was, in fact, to be consumed by others. The necessity of each particular item of expenditure ought to be distinctly shown, and it ought to be kept distinct from every other. From the want of that separation in the grant of former Civil Lists, much confusion had arisen, and much of that extravagance which had drawn the country into the state in which it was now. It was utterly impossible for any individual Member of that House to know, from the plan of the right hon. Gentleman, what was the expenditure of money for the maintenance of the Government and for the public service. Until the separation he had alluded to had taken place, nothing like a fair estimate could be made; and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had the opportunity of simplifying the matter, had increased the confusion in which it was before involved, the House had little reason to feel the satisfaction which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to anticipate. He said, therefore, that a fuller inquiry was necessary, in order to lay the foundation of a general improve-of this fact, and then declared that the ment of the manner in which public ac- increased charge of the expenditure was counts were laid before the House. occasioned by the increase of price of Although that might appear to some a every thing in the country. From that trifling matter, he was of opinion that it statement of the cause of the increase, was really a matter of importance; and what was now to be expected from the unless something was done to simplify right hon. Gentleman? Why, that he the statement of the public accounts, the should decrease the expenditure of the House would perpetually be encountered Civil List, at least in the degree in which by difficulties, in their attempt to effect the necessary articles of life had decreased that retrenchment which the country ex-in price. Instead of that, the right hon. pected at their hands. If the public Gentleman took the data of 1816 for the accounts were suffered to be made out in formation of his present plan—a year, the slovenly way they were at present in which the expenditure of this country kept, no man could understand them n; was most profligate and extravagant; and it would be impossible for them to asked the House to continue that expenhave an effectual control over the public diture, with the exception of some very expenditure. He hoped, therefore, they paltry reductions. Why did he ask this? would proceed with caution, and require Because his Majesty had graciously made from the Government the appointment of certain concessions of his hereditary revea committee, to examine into the details nues; but when he alluded to that subject, of the statement just made by the right he ought to have stated what were the concessions made by William 4th, above those made by George 4th? The paper he (Mr. Hume) held in his hand consisted of thirteen items, which William 4th proposed to give up beyond those given up by George 4th. Those items might be found at page 180 of the Parliamentary

hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Hume could not let this discussion pass without expressing his great regret at the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman. He confessed that the speech he had heard, much disappointed him, as, he believed it would disappoint the whole

and

Papers of last Session. The first item | departments, small as they were, and that he
related to the Droits of the Crown and should afford an opportunity of simplifying
Admiralty, and amounted to 1,2291.; the the public accounts, so that they might be
second to Droits of the Admiralty, and laid before Parliament in a shape at once
amounted to 2847.; the third consisted clear and intelligible. There he thought
of the 4-per-cent Duties, which he put that the King had been well advised, and
down at nil, for the whole of them had much good might be the result. No in-
already been transferred to the support of dividual in this or in any former Parlia-
the hierarchy of the West-Indies. Itment had regretted more deeply than he
was true, that if at any future period the had done the complex manner in which
expense of the Bishops of the West- the various items included in the Civil
Indies should amount to less than List had been stated. That Civil List had
21,000l., and these duties should ex-been the means of supporting a large
ceed that sum, the balance might be aristocratical body-the odium of which
appropriated to the public accounts. On the King was obliged to bear; he had
this point, in fact, there had been no con- been made to keep up establishments in
cession, and for 150 years a large sum had no wise connected with his household, and
been taken from a portion of the colonies, in no degree contributing to his personal
that the King might grant pensions to comfort or to his regal dignity, and merely
individuals whom he wished to favour. for the maintenance of an aristocratical
The next item was the Receiver General interest. He held in his hand the Act of
of Gibraltar, the nett receipts of last year 1 Geo. 4th, in which the payments out of
being only 1801.: this was a gift on the the Civil List were separated into eight
part of the Crown noble and liberal, and divisions, and the House would see, when
though the sum was small the principle properly examined, how small a portion
was very important. He had had occa- actually belonged to his Majesty's house-
sion at former times to complain of the hold. He allowed all the first class,
manner in which the King had levied amounting to 210,000l.; but what had the
taxes at Gibraltar that he might put the second class to do with the King's house-
proceeds into his pocket, and on an aver-hold, consisting, as it did, of payments to
age of the last seven years the sum might
amount to 9,000l. or 10,000Z. The
casual revenues of the Crown might
amount annually to about 9,000l., and
the sum stated against the Receiver Gene-
ral of Green Wax, in respect of Green
Wax, was 411. The Coroner and Attor-
ney of the King, 1047.; the King's Proc-
tor, 8,1647.; and the Commissioners of
the Affairs of Taxes, 5841. The Auditor
of the Land Revenue of England; nil;
the same of Wales, 751.; the produce of
Spices, arising from the capture of the
Molucca Islands, 3097.; Inspector of Fines
and Penalties, 8641.; together with other
items, amounting last year in the whole
(as appeared by the Parliamentary Paper
laid upon the Table pursuant to the Act
1 Geo. 4th), to only 24,000l. Let every
Member bear in mind that 24,000l. was
the whole sum relinquished under this
head, exclusive of the revenues derived
from Scotland. He, therefore, did not
think, as far as regarded amount, that his
Majesty was entitled to any great credit
*for what he had conceded; in principle,
however, it was of immense importance
that the King should divest himself of the
power of interfering with these different
VOL. I.

the Speaker of the House of Commonsto the Judges of the King's Courts-to the Barons of the Exchequer, and to the Justices of Wales, amounting to 32,0007.? These were unconnected with the comfort of the King and the dignity of the Crown, and ought to be voted by Parliament. The third class related to Ambassadors at foreign Courts, and what had they to do with his Majesty's household? Only this

that if there were by chance any overplus-any sum not required-Ministers took good care that it should be applied in some way or other. Why did he say so? Because, by 1 Geo. 4th, any sum not appropriated out of the 206,000l. there' set apart, was to be returned to the Exchequer. Mr. Canning, indeed, in three years, had taken great credit to the Government for returning to the Exchequer two sums-one of 7,000l., and the other of 13,0001.-under this clause, but his successors had not effected a saving even to that extent. The fourth class in the Act was a most important branch, including the Lord Steward's department, and those of the Lord Chamberlain, the Master of the Robes, the Surveyor of the Works, &c. The sum granted for these officers in 1820 Q

upon

clusion, then, do I come to? This:- telligible. I hope, therefore, that the That the only items in Mr. Burke's Bill of noble Lord (Althorp) will move for a 1786, and the only items at the present Committee on an early day: and if the moment, that ought to be charged upon papers are printed and delivered tothe Civil List, are the first, fourth, and morrow, I do not see how we can take fifth classes, viz. :-The Privy Purse for them into consideration before Wednesthe King and Queen; the Establishment day or Thursday. Without previous inof the Household, and the Tradesmen's quiry we cannot be prepared to say what Bills for that Establishment, amounting to sum ought or ought not to be granted, 291,000l.; or, including 50,000l. for the and without that inquiry we shall not do Queen, to 349,000l. Last year, the our duty to our constituents. At all charge under these three heads was the events, I protest against the arrangement following:-For the Privy Purse, 60,000l.; proposed it is uncalled for and comfor the Lord Chamberlain, and other plicated, and will be received with disapOfficers of the Household, 215,000Z.; and pointment, if not with indignation, by the for Tradesmen's Bills, 137,000l.-making people. in the whole only 412,000l. out of the Mr. Brougham: I cannot pretend to 1,120,0001. granted for the Civil List. say, that I have yet formed a decided Not one shilling more, I contend, is opinion upon the great question before necessary for the comfort and dignity of the House, but I am inclined to agree the Crown. On that ground, I contend, with my noble friend near me (Lord that this House cannot be prepared to Althorp) that even after the promised vote the 970,0001. now required, and papers are in our hands further informathat the Commons of England are bound tion will be necessary. The subject is of to inquire, before they come to any de- the utmost importance in itself, and in cision the subject. If the sum connexion with others in its connecessary for the Royal Household were stitutional relations, and, above all, separated, as it ought to be, from other on account of the interests it excites charges not at all connected with it, the among our constituents. Until we have King would be relieved from the odium full knowledge, we ought not to proceed under which he now labours-that so to anything like a final adjudication: I large a sum as nearly a million is annually therefore am disposed to support the prorequired for his own personal expenses. position of my noble friend for a comOf this I am sure, that nothing but an mittee, and the reason urged by my hon. investigation before a committee can friend (Mr. Hume) is precisely the ground enable this House to come to a vote, if it on which I arrive at that conclusion. We have any wish to perform its duty to the are making an arrangement which is to public. Let me remind it, that this is last during the life of his Majesty, and not the first, nor the sixth time, that hon. however we may hereafter find that we Members near me have contended for a have been in the wrong, we may be tolddiminution of the Civil expenditure of and justly told-that it is too late to rethe Crown: when they have so contended, open the contract: the bargain has been they have been uniformly met with this made, and until the demise of the Crown answer--that a bargain had been made at it cannot be altered. As I confidently the commencement of the reign, and that hope, and earnestly pray, that that event the compact having been entered into, it may be long postponed, it becomes more could not be broken. The proper time and more our imperative duty not to enter, for making reductions of the kind is at the as it were, blindfold into such a permanent commencement of a new reign-that time arrangement. The last arrangement was is now arrived a fresh bargain is now to made, I believe, in the year 1815: the be made; and when the Table groans people are now more awake to their own with petitions, and will hereafter groan interests, but I am sorry to say that they under a ten-fold weight of petitions we have not the same confidence either in the are bound to obtain the fullest information Executive Government or in the Parliament, before we enter into a new contract. We which they evinced at the date I have ought not to allow ourselves to be taken mentioned. I can only say, that I heartily by surprise in the ebullition of the mo- concur in the objections stated by my ment, and with such a complication of noble friend; the simplifying of the acaccounts as renders them utterly unin-counts would be a vast improvement.