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Ossnlston, Lord
Pakington, J. S.
Parker, M.
Parker, R. T.
Peel, Sir B.
Perceval, bon G.
Perceval, Colonel
Pigot, R.
PolhiU, F.
Pollock, Sir F.
Praed, W. M.
Praed, W. T.
Pusey, P.
Heid, Sir J. R.
Richards, R.
Rickford, W.
Rose, SirG.
Round, J.
Rushbrooke, R.
Rushout, G.
Satidon, Lord
Shaw, rt. lion. F.
Siblhorp, Col.
Smith, A.
Somerset, Lord G. of

Adam, Admiral Aglionby, H. A. Alston, R. Archbold, R. Baines, £. Ball, rt. hon. N. Bannerman, A. Baring, F. T. Barnard, E. G. Bellew, R. M. Benett, J. Bentinck, Lord W. Berkeley, hon. H. Berkeley, hon. C. Bernal, R. Blake, W. J. Bowes, J. Brabazon, Lord Bridgeman, H. Briscoe, J. I. Brotherlon, J. Bryan, G. Byng,G. Campbell, Sir J. Cave, R. O. Cavendish, C. Cayley, E. S. Chalmers, P. Childers.J. W. Clay, \V. Clayton, Sir W. Cluments, Lord Codrington, Admiral Collins, \V. Conyngham, Lord Coote, SirC. 11. Cowper, hon. W. Craig, W. G. Crompton, Sir S. Currir, R. Curry, W.

Spry, Sir S. T.
Stanley, Lord
Sturt, ti. C.
Sugden, Sir E.
Teignmonth, Lord
Thomas, Col. EL
Thompson, Alder.
Thomhill, G.
Tollemache, F.
Trench, Sir F.
Tyrell, Sir J.
Vere, Sir C. B.
Verner, Col.
Vernon, G. H.
Vivian, J. E.
Waddington, II.
Walsh, Sir J.
Whitmore, T.
Wood, T.
Yorke, hon. E. T.
Young, J.


Holmes, W. A. C.
Freemanlle, Sir T.

the Noes.

Dalmeny, Lord
Dashwood, G. H.
Divett, E.
Duckworth, S.
Duke, Sir J.
Dundas, F.
Dundas, hon. J. C.
Easthope, J.
Ebrington, Lord
Eliot, Lord
Ellice, Capt. A.
Evans, Sir De L.
Evans, G.
Fielden, J.
Ferguson, SirR.
Finch, F.
Fitzroy, Lord C.
Fleetwood, Sir P.
Gordon, R.
Goring, H. D.
Grattan, J.
Grey, Sir G.
Grosvenor, Lord
Grote, G.
llallyburton, Lord
Hastie, A.
II awes, B.
Hawkins, J. H.
Ilayter, W. G.
lleathcoat, J.
Hector, C. J.
Hi,I, Lord A. M.
Hindley, C.
Ilobhouse, Sir J.
Uobhouse.T. B.
Hodges, T. L.
Ilollond, It.
Ilorsman, E.
[loskins, K.
Howard, P. H.

Howard, Sir R. Howick, Lord Hume, J. Hutt, W. HuttoD, R. James, W. Johnson, General Kinnaird, A. F. Labouchere, II. Lefevre, C. S. Lemon, SirC. Lushington, Dr. Lushington, C. Lynch, A. H. Macleod, R. Marshall, W. Martin, J. Martin, T. B. Maule, hon. F. Mildmay, P. St. J. Morpeth, Lord Vise. Morris, D. Murray, J. A. Muskett, G. A. O'Brien, W. S. O'Connell, D. O'Connell, J. O'Connell, M. J. O'Connell, M. O'Ferrall, R. M. Paget, Lord A. Palmer, C. F. Palmerston, Lord Parker, J. Parneli, Sir H. Pattison, J. Pechell, Capt. Pendarves, E. W. Philpotts, J. Ponsonby, hon. J. Power, J. Price, Sir R. Protheroe, E. Pryme, G. Redington, T. N

Rice, T. S. Rich, H. Rolfe, Sir R. M. Rumbold, C. E. Russell, Lord J. Russell, Lord Russell, Lord C. Salwey, Colonel Scrope, G. P. Seymour, Lord Sheil, H. L. Smith, J. A. Smith, B. Smith, hon. R. Smith, R. V. Somerville, Sir W. Stanley, E. J. Stewart, J. Stock, Dr. Stuart, Lord J. Strangways, J. Style, Sir C. Surrey, Earl of Thomson, C. P. Thornely, T. Troubridge, Sir E. T. Turner, E. Vigors, N. A. Villiers, C. P. Vivian, Sir R. Wall, C. B. Wallace, R. Warburton, H. Ward, H. G. Westenra, J. C. Williams, W. A. Wilshere, W. Winnington, H. Wood, Sir M. Wood, G.W. Wyse, T. Yates, J. A.


Wood, C.
Steuart, R.

Mr. Ball proposed to leave out" words introduced by the Lords," which went to limit the rating to the relief of the poor and to substitute words which included all cesses and rates.

Mr. Shaw insisted that the words ought to be retained.

Mr. O'Connell observed, that the words were in the clause as to the payment of local rates and taxes, and therefore he did not think the words objected to ought to be retained.

The House divided on the question that the Lords' amendment be retained: Ayes 144; Noes 162: Majority 18. Words rejected.

Clause 14: By this clause it was enacted, that the collectors of cesses, rates, and taxes, the payment whereof is required for the purpose of entitling any person to be enrolled as a burgess, should open accounts with the Bank of Ireland or the Provincial Bank of Ireland, and that it should be lawful for every person liable to pay any such cess to pay the same into the Bank, and such payments should be deemed to have been made to the collector to whose credit it was paid.

The Lords having struck out this clause,

Mr. Ball moved, that the Lords' amendment be rejected, and the clause restored.

Sir E. Sugden opposed the motion.

Mr. O'Connell supporled it, and said, it often happened, that persons were disfranchised by reason of the collectors purposely keeping out of the way, in order to avoid receiving the payment of the rates and taxes.

The House divided on the question to disagree with lha Lords: Ayes 157 ; Noes 137 : Majority 20.

Clause reinstated in the bill.


[The division on the question of the franchise, being the principal one, and nearly the same persons dividing on the two other questions, it seemed unnecessary to print the lists of more than those of the division ou the franchise.]

Friday, August 3, 1838.

MrsoTtn.] Bill. Read a third time:—Sheriff* Advocations (Scotland).

Petitions presented. Hy the Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord llAVENSwoRrH, and the Earl of IlAnnownv, from a number of places, against Hindoo Idolatry.—By Lord BaououiH, from the Lord Mayor, Alderman, and Common Couucil of I.ondon, for an Improvement in the Registration under the Reform Act.—By the Earl of Haddington, from the Diocese of Ardagh, in Ireland, in favour of the Irish Church.

Tithes (ireland).] On the motion of Viscount Melbourne, the following passage from the speech of her Majesty at the commencement of the Session was read by the clerk:—" The laws which govern the colleciion of the tithe composition in Ireland require revision and amendment. Convinced, that the belter and more effectual administration of justice in among the first duties of a Sovereign 1 request your attention to those measures which will be submitted to you for the improvement of the law."

Viscount Melbourne then stated, that he had received her Majesty's commands to announce her consent to the introduction of the measure before the House, and he begged leave to move, that their Lordships go into Committee on the Tithes (Ireland) Bill. As it had been agreed to without any observation on the second reading, it might be expected, that he should at least state generally what was the object and intention of the bill in its present stage. Although he felt the deep importance of this measure, and of this subject, and although he felt, among many great and pressing measures which forced themselves on the attention of the Government, upon the attention of Parliament, and upon the attention of the country, that this was perhaps the most pressing, and urgent, yet, at the same time, it had been so repeatedly discussed in that House, the principles upon which the bill was founded had been so repeatedly stated to their Lordships, the opinions of most of their Lordships were so well known upon them, and the great principle of the bill had been upon all occasions so generally admitted, that he did not feel it necessary, notwithstanding the great importance of the question, to address many observations to their Lordships upon the present occasion, or for any very long time to interfere between their Lordships and the Committee, into which he trusted it would be the determination of their Lordships to enter. When questions were of very great and deep importance, when they very deeply and strongly affected the interests and feelings of great bodies of the Queen's subjects, when they were in themselves of an exceedingly sensitive and inflammatory nature, and when they were extremely difficult of solution, when, in fact, they presented almost insuperable difficulties, it appeared to him unquestionably to be more prudent not to stir or agitate such questions unnecessarily, or to make them topics of superfluous discussion. He should, therefore, on the present occasion and in the few observations which he had to address to their Lordships, entirely refrain and abstain fiom touching upon any of those great questions, the very important questions of civil and ecclesiastical polity, with which their Lordships all knew this question was closely and deeply connected. He should confine himself to the bill at present before their the adoption of which there had been, as far as he recollected, no difference of i amongst their Lordships, the only arising upon the details of the The principle and the chief n'of this bill was, to convert the present tithe composition of Ireland into a rent-charge payable by the person who held the first estate of inheritance, that first estate being accurately and strictly defined by the bill, and being such an estate as might be considered as to extent amount and duration, to all practical purposes equivalent to the possession of the fee simple of the land. It was not necessary to state the reasons or object of ibis change and alteration. It was not for him to point out—it was obvious to their Lordships—that to relieve the occupying tenant from the liability of discharging his tithe, and to throw the discharge of what was due on those who were in every respect more able, in every respect more willing, upon those who were few in number and higher in station, would unquestionably put an end to, and close the unfortunate discords and tumults that had arisen from this cause in Ireland, or at least would put an end to them in the form in which they had hitherto existed. This was the great principle and object of this bill. There were two points which were new, and which had not been adverted to in the former measure on this subject. These were the provisions with respect to that portion of the million which had been advanced under the act of the year 1833 for the relief of the clergy of Ireland and also the provision with respect to the arrears of the tithes that had accrued due during the last four years, and during the unfortunate difficulties which bad been met with in the collection of tithes. It was perfectly obvious, that unless they closed up all questions with respect to the arrears, unless they put an end to all collection of those arrears in that country they would not be giving this measure fair play, and they would not be taking the best means for accomplishing the end in view. If they left the arrears still to be collected by the clergy from the occupying tenant, they could not make the measure so complete as they 1

Lordships, and to the statement of the ought to make it; they would not be great principles of that measure. This giving a fair chance of accomplishing the till was founded upon the principle which had been the principle of all former bills on this subject, and with respect to


beneficial object which they expected from it. By the clause, therefore, of this bill the Lord-lieutenant was empowered, and not only empowered, but directed, to remit to the clergy the instalments doe from them of the million which had been advanced to them, and thus exonerate them from the necessity of levying it from those by whom it was due. With respect to the residue of the million, which amounted to about 260,000/., certain sums having been advanced to the clergy and certain sums having been appropriated to other purposes it was proposed to apply this residue to the satisfaction of the arrears according to the claims of the titheowners with respect to the arrears accruing due during the last four years, namely, 1834, 1835, 1836, and '1837. It was to be remitted only to the clergy and was not to be remitted to those lay impropriators who possessed both the land and the tithes, nor to those clergymen who had already received from their debtors that portion of the tithes that was due to them. It was impossible in a debate to go into calculations on this subject and he would, therefore, refrain from doing so. He had some calculations that had been made, but he was rather fearful of future calculations, particularly in pecuniary matters, as he knew they were very apt not to be justified by the result. It had, however, been supposed, that for the last four years 500,000/. was due upon the amount of tithes, and about 270,000/. previously. By the 260,000/., together with the sums that had been received and that were to be received from lay impropriators, it was supposed, that they would raise 500,000/., which would be sufficient to pay the clergy about 70 per cent, upon those arrears. This was the calculation which had been made; but he begged, however, not to be understood as making himself responsible for its perfect accuracy, oras pledginghimself as to the future result. Those provisions were new, and it was perfectly evident what were the grounds and object of introducing them into the present bill. Whatever objections might be urged to them, those objections were overborne by the greater advantages, and, in present circumstances, the necessity of them for the welfare and the beneficial operation of this measure. He did not know, that it was necessary for him to

make any other observation upon the other clauses of the bill, which were subsidiary to the main object, and only framed to carry into effect those principles which he had stated to their Lordships. But there were unquestionably certain clauses which were not new, which they had had in all the bills sent up from the House of Commons on this subject, and to which, as their Lordships very well knew, very

gant cases; but at the same time, if there had been a great deal of remissness, if the country suffered under these charges, as it did suffer, he trusted, that upon a fair consideration the House would be disposed to sanction the revision of those contracts, carefully guarded and secured as such revision was by the bill. These were the principal provisions of this bill, and he did not know whether it was nc

great objections were entertained by many cessary for him to trouble their Lordships

Members of this House—he meant those clauses which provided, in certain cases of excess, in certain cases of alleged fraud, in certain cases of mistake and want of care, for the re-opening and the re-consideration of the composition for tithes as it at present existed. He knew this was very much objected to as unnecessary, as breaking into and re-opening and ripping up contracts founded upon parliamentary sanction, and which had been solemnly decided upon. On the other hand, it was perfectly certain, that there were many cases in which these compositions were extremely beyond the mark, and beyond the real value of the property, in which they had been made with very great carelessness and neglect, and where, in consequence, very great excess prevailed in the amount with which the land was charged for tithe; and it was generally admitted, that, with respect to a certain class of compositions, those which had been compulsorily formed under the act commonly called Lord Stanley's Act, at a time when great violence existed on one side, they had been carried into effect without that care which was required, and whether the

with any public observations upon them, or upon anything connected with them. He knew nothing was more dangerous than to anticipate anything like success upon any measure. He knew, also, that nothing was more unwise, or more likely to end in disappointment, than to prognosticate anything like supposed contentment or tranquillity; but he begged leave to say, that although he did not draw any flattering picture of that description, yet knowing, that he had himself the same object as all their Lordships had in view, he presented to their consideration this bill on the present occasion, as the best and most prudent from which it was possible to hope for success under present circumstances. The noble Viscount concluded by moving, that the House resolve itself into Committee on the Tithes (Ireland) Bill.

Lord Brougham: If I could agree with the noble Viscount, not merely in the opinion with which he concluded his address, that this is the best bill that could be framed, and that it is the measure roost likely to attain the end we all have in view with respect to Ireland under pre

charge had been made fairly or unfairly j sent circumstances, and particularly if I in those cases, unquestionably those com- could agree with the observation with positions could not be relied upon as being j which the noble Viscount commenced his in any degree fair representatives of the property which they were intended to assess and to represent. Upon those grounds, he might say extraordinary grounds, those clauses were introduced which gave to a certain number of persons, possessing a certain portion of composition, the right to apply for a revision and reconsideration of the contract upon certain alleged and specific grounds mentioned in the bill, namely, want of care, excess, fraud, and misrepresentation in the beginning andi n the formation of the contract. He knew very well, that their Lordships would look with jealousy on a principle of this sort, because there might have been one or two exorbitant or extravaVOL, XL1V.

speech, that the subject matter now before you had been so often already discussed as to make it superfluous to moot again points that had been so frequently dealt with and decided, my present task would indeed be reduced within limits more commensurate at once with my own inclination and the patience of your I/ordships. But it is because I do not take that view of this measure with which the noble Viscount's speech closed, and it is because I know—for this is no matter of opinion, it is rnattrr of fact—it is hecauso I also know, thnt the Doblfl Viscount has misstated, doublhui from not m <mutely recollecting tin: relative position in which be now standi, and in which ho for* 2 II


merly stood when this question was last before the House, that I feel it to be my indispensable duty, a duty from which I may not shrink, to enter my protest in this first stage, in which 1 have bad an opportunity, in debate at least, of doing so, and of expressing my dissent, and the reasons of that dissent, from the measure of the noble Viscount. As to any picture that can be drawn prospectively, flattering to the hopes of those who are its friends, or as to any past kind of sketch that might be given by those who, feeling deeply apprehensive of the consequences, avow themselves its adversaries, I purposely, for the present at least, would abstain, as the noble Viscount has done, from any such expressions, deeming it generally rather rash, inasmuch as expectations raised are often disappointed, and fears entertained as frequently afterwards prove to be unfounded. But there is one remark of the noble Viscount's in which I entirely agree, in which the noble Viscount said, that calculations were dangerous as well as perspective sketches, and that those calculations which were made of what was to happen in future were very often frustrated by the event. This bill, my Lords, at once gives a very remarkable instance of the truth of the proposition, and it is the first of the grounds which I have stated to your Lordships for not feeling it possible to retire from the discussion of this subject, namely, that it is not the measure we have formerly discussed. The calculation is this. When my noble Friend, Lord Altborp, with my entire concurrence as a Member of the same Government with himself and the noble Viscount, propounded the million advance to the Irish Church, the calculation (to use the phrase of the noble Viscount) then was, that it was a loan, and the expectation raised by that calculation necessarily followed, that like other loans, the party advancing it was to have a claim of repayment; and also like other creditors, the repayment was sooner or later to take place by the payee in the calculation—the Church to whom it was advanced; or if it were not advanced to the Church, but only to relieve the payers of tithes, namely, the Irish landowners, that after a time these Irish landowners would repay, as it suited their convenience, but still sooner or later repay the money so advanced. Well might the noble Viso-ut say, in open


ing the measure to-night, as a general proposition, that calculations are not always realized, for it is not above four years since that calculation was instituted, and with that result; and we are now converting the loan into a gift, and at the time when we had well hoped that the repayment of the million might have been effected, instead of the repayment we have been favoured with a conversion, and what was a loan we are to abandon at once and for ever. Now, therefore, I have a right to saj that this is not the measure which has been so oflen discussed before—that this is not the same argument into which we have already entered—that they who approved of the former measure may most consistently as they do conscientiously, disapprove of this measure. But that measure sinned against no principle, and, if I am not much deceived, I shall satisfy some at least of those who agreed with me in patronising that measure, that the present measure sins against all. My Lords, so much for the changes in the bill as regards what is still in it; but a great deal has been left out. The bill wants the jewel in the head of the former measure.—1 f'1"1 nothing of that which mainly recommended the former measure. I see a blank in that portion of the bill which in former times contained all that smoothed the path to the support which many a man gave it, and, at all events, to tliat which chiefly made many who desired much more, rest satisfied with the little that was then bestowed. I allude to what was commonly called the appropriation clause. What has, in the name of wonder, and in the name of consistency—and I wish to say nothing offensive when I add in the name of principle—what is it that has expunged the appropriation clause entirely from the present bill? My watching and longing eyes search for it in vain. There is nothing whatever in the present bill to console those who approved of it on principlethere is nothing to comfort my n°'>'c Friend the Secretary for the Home Department, one of the most strenuous advocates for that principle, both in the Cabinet, where I had the honour of sitting with him, and out of the Cabinet, and i" the country, and in his writings, and » his speeches, and in his motions i" t,lC other House of Parliament. No comfort has either he or 1 in looking at the pr°vl' sions of this new-fangled, new fashion6" bill ; appropriation is as much passed over

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