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for one would certainly never have consented to leave those charities in the doubtful situation in which they were in fact left on the passing of that measure, if he had not believed that the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) would have been able, in the then following Session of Parliament, to propose a bill for the regulation and management of those corporation charities. That, however, had not been done, and since the Act passed, the English Municipal Corporation charities had been and still remained under the direction of the Court of Chancery, and as far as he had any kuowledge on the matter from general report, he was sure that it was impossible for anything to be worse managed than were those charities. And if report spoke truth, the funds of those charities had in many instances, been applied to purposes of corruption both in municipal and Parliamentary elections. Such, at least, he had heard, had been the case. He therefore rejoiced that in this bill, it was otherwise provided, and that until arrangements were made for the future management of the corporate charities, they were to be kept in the hands of the parties who held them up to the present moment. This provision followed, he believed, in all respects, the exceptions made in the Scotch Municipal Reform Act. The noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Melbourne) had expressed his anxiety, that when this bill came back from another place with the alterations which might then be proposed, their Lordships would feel disposed to meet those alterations with a sincere desire to come to an agreement on the measure. He (the Duke of Wellington) had no doubt whatever but that their Lordships would meet the views and wishes that might be expressed by the other House with every sincere desire to concur in them, if it were possible to do so consistently with their Lordships' ideas of what was most fit and most desirable for the interests of Ireland. But he (the Duke of Wellington) confessed that he should be very glad to hear from the noble Viscount or his colleagues exerting their influence to conciliate the feelings of the other House in relation to this branch of the Legislature. He should be glad to see an instance of this being done. He considered that in all their reforms, care should be taken, (and he confessed that the noble and learned Lord opposite, Lord Brougham,

in all the reforms that he had proposed had taken care) that no vexatious tyranny should be exercised upon any individual; that no person should be deprived of his property or his means of existence and living by the violence of a faction that might have for the time the upper hand. The noble and learned Lord had invariably taken care to introduce a proper clause for compensation, to provide for every man deprived of his office or means of living, in consequence of the reforms introduced by the noble and learned Lord. He must say, that the noble Viscount and her Majesty's Government ought to have done the same in this case; they ought to have taken care that in consequence of this reform no man should suffer or be destroyed by the success given on this occasion, to the adverse party in the stale. He mentioned this, because there was scarce a day passed that did not bring him accounts from poor men and from others, stating that they would lose their offices under these arrangements, that they would be deprived of emoluments to which they had a right to look forward as rewards for their services, by the arrangements made under the Bill. He would state one instance with regard to which he believed, a noble Friend of his intended to move an amendment — a case which came to him yesterday. The Lord Mayor of Dublin, who had served within a month or two of the whole period of his office, would, on its completion, as the law now stood, be entitled to receive 1,000/. This remuneration he would lose by the operation of this Bill. But, besides this, having served the mayoralty, he would be now entitled to the emoluments of the office for one year as President of the Court of Conscience. This was again in remuneration for his services in the civic chair during the past year and all this he would lose by the operation of this bill. Now, it was well known that this House had no power to provide compensation, or to make any arrangement for satisfying claims of this kind and he must contend that it was incumbent on her Majesty's Government when they brought forward such measures as the present in another place, to consider well these claims, and to take care that these individuals should not become victims to these reforms, nor deprived of that remuneration to which they had every claim for services performed. He had troubled their Lordships much longer than lie intended, but he could not hear what had been said by noble Lords opposite, without stating these few words, and declaring that he should firmly support the Bill, as it was now amended by his noble and learned Friend. It would be his duty to attend to any future proposals that might come up from another place, where he did hope some consideration would be manifested both for this House and for those who would still be the victims of the measure when passed into a law.

Lord Brougham, in explanation, said, that he had not given up his views that there ought to be no qualification. If the bill had not been altered, it contained a 51. qualification. That qualification he (Lord Brougham), however, was not satisfied with; but for the sake of conciliation, he, in common with many other noble Lords near him, had given way. He, however, still claimed the benefits of the experience they had had of the English Corporation Bill, and the consequent extension of the same principle to Ireland. He went entirely the full length with the noble Duke, in partaking of any unpopularity that might follow an act of justice; and not only would he protect those rights, not only for the sake of justice and humanity, but, as a sincere Reformer, on grounds of policy, for he had always thought that the greatest mistake Reformers could commit, was to be unjust— for to be so, would be to raise a host of enemies to reform.

The Earl of fVicklow would not do justice to his own feelings, if he did not make a few observations on the subject under the consideration of their Lordships. He was glad, that noble Lords had agreed to reform the corporations of Ireland; but he could not agree with the noble Duke, that if this bill were passed in its present shape, it would allay agitation on this subject in that country. He feared the mode in which this bill was framed, would only in- j crease agitation; because it would be conside red as an offence and insult, that only eleven towns were to have corporations. The design of relief fell far short of what was expected; and therefore he could not help expressing his regret, that the noble Viscount should have abstained from bringing forward the subject of which he had given notice. The fact was, that instead of leaving his amendments to be proposed in another place, the noble Viscount ought to have brought them forward

himself; and ke must be allowed to say, that he did not think it either wise or prudent to allow the proper functions of their Lordships' House to be superseded in this manner. The noble Viscount ought to have proposed his own amendments; and if they were defeated, and afterwards adopted in another place, why then he would be justified in reproposing them in a more forcible way. He said this, because he wished the number of towns to which municipal corporations were granted to be increased; but while he entertained this wish, he never could consent to a low qualification—a low franchise would not, he was persuaded, be judicious in Ireland. It might, as an abstract principle, be good to remove all corporations from the Irish towns; but such a course, he thought, would not be desirable in practice, as they were institutions to which the people were attached by long habit. In fact, they could not deprive the towns of Ireland of corporations without danger; and this being his own opinion, he must say, he wished the noble Viscount had persevered in his intentions. There was one observation of the noble and learned Lord on which he wished to remark. The noble and learned Lord said, that the franchise now proposed, was a deception on both sides of the House; that one party were deceived in supposing it a 10/. qualification, and the other if they imagined it would be reduced to 71. or 81. Both parties, he said, were deceived, because it was neither the one nor the other; but in fact a 13/. franchise. He must deny that. If the qualification were to exceed 10/., certainly it should not have his assent; but the noble |and learned Lord was in error on the subject, and he fell into this mistake by applying the circumstances of England to Ireland. The rating in the two countries would be widely different; and his belief was, that as the rating in Ireland would not exceed the value, as was the case in England, the qualification proposed by his noble and learned Friend would not, in fact, be more that a qualification of something between 8/. and 9/. It might be advantageous to the working of this bill, if their Lordships were at once to decide upon a 9/. franchise; but, as k might not be convenient to adopt that course now, he was prepared to support the bill as amended.

Several alterations were made, and clauses were added.

The bill to be passed on (he following Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday, Jidy 27, 1838.

Mjnutks,] Bills. Read a first time:—Joint Stock Banks;
Transfer of Funds; War Office Act Amendment.

Petitions presented. By Captain Alsaubr, from Marylebonc, against the Grant to the College of Maynooth —By Major Bryan, from Kilkenny, for the total Extinction of Tithes.—By Mr. L. Brugks, from the Guardians of the Bath Poor-law Union, for the repeal of the 27th .Section of the Poor-law.—By Captain Dunda.% by Mr. Mau.ysem., and by Captain Wood, from the Wcslcyan Methodist Congregation of Great Queen-street, Lincoln'sinn-fields, and various other places, against encouraging Idolatry in India.

Bank Of Irfland.] On the motion that the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply be read,

Mr. Hume rose, to bring on the motion of which he had given notice as follows:— "That the exclusive privileges now enjoyed by the Bank of Ireland are injurious to the best interests of that country, and it is therefore most expedient and just to place, as soon as possible, the banks of Ireland on a footing of equality." He wished to know why Ireland, which so much wanted the benefit of capital, should be continued under such a system of monopoly any longer? He considered that they were now in a situation to throw out of view what had been the evils of jointstock banks, or of the Bank of Ireland. They were now in a situation to call upon the Government, to say why the system of banking in Ireland should not now be put on the same footing as the banks in Scotland. He would call for the same justice to this country, only that he knew that the Bank of England had its monopoly for a certain time; but in the case of the Bank of Ireland it was different, for their charter of exclusiveness was now at an end, and there could be no reason for continuing so injurious a monopoly. Why was the capital of the Bank of Ireland, amounting to two millions and a half, lent to the Government at an interest of four per cent.? He wished to know whether the right lion. Gentleman had continued the former rate of interest, or whether since January any new arrangement had been made? Seeing the right hon. Gentleman might have borrowed the money at three per cent., if he was paying four or four and a half per cent., it was evident that was to the great injury of the public. He

wished the Government to declare their intentions as to the future state of banking in Ireland, and he now begged to move his resol tion.

Mr. Ormsby Gorel n seconding the resolution, said, he hoped the Government, if they had it in contemplation to renew the charter of the Bank of Ireland, would recollect the circumstances tinder which that charter had been originally granted. It was antecedent to the Legislature of Ireland becoming part of that of England; and in consequence it was considered necessary that Ireland should, as England had, have a national bank. But since the Act of Union had passed, what necessity could be imagined for two national banks J The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, both the mover and seconder of the amendment had fallen into error, in supposing lhat in moving the Committee, the object was to consider the evidence and frame a Report. On the contrary, he had stated that there were three distinct questions on which evidence was to be taken—the establishment of branch banks of England throughout England ; the issues, by certain of these joint-stock banks of bank paper in substitution for their own; and, thirdly, this subject of the Bank of Ireland. The proceedings in the Committee had been strictly in accordance with the statements he then made. It had not inquired into matters which were the subject of investigation on previous occasions, and there was therefore no inconsistency in the course taken by the Committee, and the declaration which he had made. He should decline now entering into an argument on the case, because he could show to the House a sufficient reason for reserving that subject for future consideration. Nothing could be more indiscreet on his part, than to go into a premature discussion as to whether he agreed with, or dissented from, the proposition of the hon. Member, because it might prejudice the question to do so before the evidence which had been taken was in the hands of Members. But the hon. Gentleman had a right to see that the public interests were not affected or forestalled out of doors. The Report which had been brought up, although not yet in the hands of hon. Members, adverted to this subject, and recommended that a bill, in continuation of that of last Session, should be brought in, in such a manner as to give the House an unfettered discretion in the

next Session to deal with the question as it should think fit. This was doing all that could be required in the present posture of affairs. Without going into the general proposition, he wished to say one word on a suggestion made by the hon. Member for Kilkenny. He not only had thrown out a supposition, the practicability of which he did not doubt, that an unrestricted freedom of competition in banking would be advantageous to the interests of Ireland; but he had thrown out a much larger proposition, that if it were not for the privilege of the Bank of England, a free competition of the banks of issue in this country was a matter which he contemplated as advantageous. This was a suggestion to which he should enter his dissent, reserving it as a matter for future consideration. There was another matter on which he also wished to make an observation. Undoubtedly there was on the advances made by the Bank of Ireland an amount of interest beyond the market rate of interest. But, at the same time, the Bank of Ireland acted differently by the public from the Bank of England, which charged 340/. per million on the management of the public debt, whilst the Bank of Ireland transacted this without any charge whatever. He would not go into the question further, than to assure the hon. Member, that if he looked minutely into this matter, which must be done next year, at any rate, he would find that so great a saving as he anticipated would not be effected. He was as anxious as any man to save 30,000/. or 40,000/.; but he was afraid that could not be done. He, however, thought the arrangement that had been made, such as deserved reconsideration. The hon. Member had observed, upon the effect of joint-stock banks, and had said that the inquiry that had been entered into with respect to them, and the publication of the evidence, had been adopted by the Government in a feeling of hostility towards them. Now, in answer to that, he begged to say that he had been actuated by no such feeling. The hon. Member had also said, that the publication of the evidence hud left those banks in a state of feverish excitement. In that statement he could not agree with him, as it was his belief that the publication of the evidence had been attended with the best effect, as it had given to the banks, many of which were in their infancy, the benefit of the example and experience

of the older banks. The Northern and Central, and some of the other banks, were in no way connected with this subject; and if they were, when he considered the pressure under which the public laboured, and the small number of failures that had taken place, he felt convinced that the principle of joint-stock banks was good, and would prove beneficial to the country. Under these circumstances, he trusted, the explanation he had given would be satisfactory, reserving to himself the right of proposing any legislation in the next Session that he might think fit.

Mr. JVarburlon, after the intimation just given by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as also the statements made on a former occasion, that in next Session of Parliament not only the affairs of the Bank of Ireland, but also the principles by which the affairs of the Bank of England were regulated, would be submitted to a committee and there undergo examination and discussion, thought it would be most advisable if his hon. Friend would not persevere in his motion. Some of those principles by which banking companies were regulated, particularly with respect to unrestricted circulation, had been the subject of discussion with men who were best informed upon the subject; and it being now decided, that a committee would sit for the purpose of deciding upon these and other points next Session, he trusted his hon. Friend would withdraw the motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Relations With Persia.] On the motion, that the Speaker leave the chair, for the House to go into a Committee of Supply,

Sir S. Canning would avail himself of the opportunity to make some further inquiries on a subject on which he had on a former occasion applied for an answer to the right hon. President of the Board of Control.) He hoped, that he might now be permitted to ask what was the nature and object of the expedition which had recently been sent from Bombay to Bushire. He asked this question because, from the Indian newspapers, there was every reason to believe, lhat it was connected with hostilities towards Persia. It had long been known, that an intimate connexion of a diplomatic kind existed between Persia and Russia. It was also known, that that connexion bad of late assumed a closer character, for the siege of Herat was now directed by the Russian envoy, who happened to be an officer of engineers. He mentioned this to shew the importance of the subject, connected as it was with Persia on the one hand, and with Russia on the other. He understood, that it was notorious, that a connexion subsisted at present between Russia and Persia, and that it was even carried to the extent of being of an offensive and defensive nature. Now, the nature of the expedition recently sent from Bombay seemed to compromise our pacific relations with Persia, and if so with Russia. He therefore requested the noble Secretary to inform him, if he deemed it compatible with his public duty, first, whether the object of that expedition was such as would justify Persia in placing herself in a hostile relation towards us; and secondly, whether he had received any information as to the nature of the secret treaty between Russia and Persia.

Viscount Palmerston could only refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer which he had already received from his right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Control, that the expedition to Bushire had been sent out, not by this Government, but by the Governor-general of India. As to the secret treaty which the right hon. Gentleman conceived to exist between Russia and Persia, he had no information.

Sir R. Peel contended, that this was not an unnatural question to put to the noble Lord on going: into a committee of supply. Surely, the House had a right to know in what position its foreign rcla. tions were placed. He, therefore, would ask the noble Lord whether the expedition had sailed to occupy any part of Persia. Had it gone with hostile intentions towards Persia, or by the solicitation of the Government of Persia? To say that it had gone by the authority of the Gtfvernor-general was no answer to the question. We ought to know whether it had sailed with hostile intentions against Persia.

Viscount Palmerston submitted, that the right hon. Baronet should have put that question to his right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Control, when he stated, that the expedition had been sent in consequence of an order from the Governor-general of India.

Subject dropped.

Blockade Of Mexico.] Mr. Alderman Thompson inquired, whether there was any truth in the report which had obtained circulation, and caused considerable uneasiness in the city this afternoon, that the packets to and from Mexico had been interdicted by the French Government from carrying specie, the property of private individuals, while the blockade lasted?

Lord Palmerston said, the hon. Gentleman knew, that according to the strict doctrine of the law on blockade, the French Government would have been entitled to establish an absolute blockade, whereas they had made an exception in favour of the packets in and out between this country and Mexico. Two questions were put to the French Government, whether they would allow these packets to carry specie belonging to merchants; and next, whether they would allow them to carry specie belonging to the English Government, and required for the service? The French Government acceded to the latter part of the request, to allow the packets to carry specie belonging to the Government, but declined to allow them to take specie belonging to individuals. The permitting packets to pass at all, was an indulgence which we had no right to expect according to our own principles, and allowing packets to take specie belonging to Government, was another indulgence which they had no right to expect.

Poor Law.] Mr. G. Palmer in rising to bring forward the subject of which he had given notice, begged to assure the noble Lord opposite that he was actuated by no vexations feeling on the present occasion. But he felt that the constitutional rights and liberties of the people of this country had been invaded, and would be invaded more and more every day, by the Poor-law commissioners, acting under the noble Lord, unless some means were taken to place a proper check on their proceedings; and therefore, he felt it his duty to the public at large to bring this matter forward. At the same time he begged to observe, that in any remarks he should have to offer nothing was further from his intention than to make any reflections on the private character of the commissioners; he spoke only of their public conduct. He knew he was treading on delicate ground in bringing forward this matter, when so

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