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amendment introduced by theit Lordships, establishing as a qualification for the burgesses under the bill, the occupation of a tenement rated at 10/., including repairs and insurance, appeared to him very objectionable. They all knew that the actual value of a tenement was far beyond llie value at which it was rated. He held in his hand a statement of the actual value of many houses in different towns in Ireland—in Belfast, in Dublin, in Limerick, and others, by which it appeared that the actual value of tenements was far, very far, beyond the value at which they were rated. Such was the case in England, and such, he apprehended, was the case everywhere; and he believed, that it was perfectly certain, that the value of a tenement rated at 10/. would probably vary from 12/. to 15/. By adopting the amendment which had been proposed, their Lordships would consequently be establishing in Ireland a qualification which was evidently a great deal too high, and which, he feared, would have the effect of constituting governing bodies for the corporate towns in Ireland, not much less exclusive than those at present in existence. If that were the case, their Lordships must perceive, that their own expectations with regard to the working of the bill would not be answered, and that they would be passing a measure which could neither be satisfactory to the country, nor answer the ends for which it was intended—viz., the establishment of a free and regular government for municipal towns in Ireland, based on the principle of popular election, including and bringing into its sphere and operation all that was generally respectable, and entitled to have a share in the government of those towns. He was aware that the great body of their Lordships had adopted the amendment, under the impression, that a high qualification was very advantageous in aiding those principles which were generally considered as Conservative. He did not know on what ground it was, their Lordships formed such an opinion. They had already tried an experiment of that kind in Ireland. They had raised the freehold qualification in counties from 40s. to 10/., and making all allowance for the means by which the franchise was procured, for the perjury which was said to exist, and the false valuations said to be palmed on the revising barristers, still it was impossible, he apprehended, to deny that that change was a considerable raising

of the county qualification in Ireland. Now, he begged their Lordships to consider whether the effect of raising the franchise, had ibeen such as they had expected; and whether, in point of fact, it had not strengthened those opinions and principles which they never wished to strengthen 1 Had they then any reason to expect a dissimilar effect from a similar provision with regard to municipal voters? He begged to say, that he entirely objected to the amendment, which he considered would be a great source of strife, and blemish in the bill, calculated to countervail its advantages, and to prevent its proving ultimately satisfactory. But, at the same time, as their Lordships' opinion in favour of the higher qualification had been so distinctly expressed, and supported by such a large majority in Committee, it was not his intention again to stir the question, to propose any amendments to the bill on the present occasion, or to take the sense of their Lordships again on the subject. But he gave notice, that he should, on the third reading, move the addition of a certain number of towns to schedule A; and also the addition of another schedule, containing several other towns, to which he thought corporations and municipal government ought to be given by the bill, with a lower rate of qualification. He now moved, that the Report be received.

Lord Brougham wished to say a few words, having been accidentally prevented from taking a part in the former discussion on this bill. He concurred with the noble Viscount in what had just fallen from him, and he confessed, that he was greatly disappointed in the two amendments of his noble and learned Friend. His noble and learned Friend, instead of forcing corporations on some towns, proposed to give those towns means of obtaining corporations on application to the Crown, in the meantime vesting the corporate power in certain commissioners. He thought with his noble and learned Friend that the towns in schedule B were too numerous, and that by granting corporations to all they would be going too low. For the same reason in the schedule of the Scotch Burghs Reform Bill in 1833, he had yielded to the opinions of a noble Earl for whom he entertained great respects he had given up some of the towns in the schedule, and instead of having gone too far, he thought that if he had given up

eight or ten towns mere, in which it had
been found impossible to work the mea-
•nre well, he should have improved ir.
For the same reason, then, that he had in
183 5 consented to alter the Scotch bill as
it came from the Commons, he would
agree loan alteration of schedule B in the
present bill; but if they struck oat all the
towns in that schedule they would be
going loo far. The natural line was to
keep in the schedule all the parliamentary
boroughs. They were of some conse-
quence and importance. He would leave
tlio residue to petition; and even if there
were any parliamentary boroughs of a
small chtss they might be omitted; but all
cities and towns of consequence, or of any
extent, ought to be included in the bill.
.So much for the first amendment of his
noble and learned Friend. To the second,
which was of far more importance, he had a
more serious objection lie would not go
over the ground taken by the noble
Vuncount 5 for, undoubtedly, though they
might talk of a liV. franchise, yet if it
were regulated by the rate it would amount
to 14L in real value. It was immaterial
for the rate what was the value; and
whilst noble Fords said, that they would
give A UV, franchise, ibc\ adopted a test
which would exclude all 1Oi. houses, and
would really give a franchise of 127, or
147. or 15/. Another Teason why he
(Ford Brougham) differed still more from
his noble and learned Friend was one to
which he would call his noble Friend1*
serious attention. The noble l,ord wished
to include in the 10/. the landlord's re-
pairs and insurance; nnd therefore he did
not say in words, but held out that it was
not a 10/. house, but one of lower value.
Perhaps an 8/. bouse would be accepted.

1 .ord f.yyirfhvrft said: By no means, quite the contrary; he meant only a bouse which was let for 10/. bond fide, the tenant paving those taxes which usually fell upon the tenant, and were usually paid by htm.

Lord BroHpham continued: What he wanted, then, to caution noble Lords against was, the supposition that what was applicable to England was applicable in the same degree to Iroland. The test proposed mwht, for aught he knew, be excellent in England, but circumstances were different in 1 relantl. How little etVect would repairs and insurance have in raising the value in Ireland - Whoever thought that a 10.\ tenement wcuM cost much to keep it iu repair? Whoerer heard of »

landlord to Ireland repairing such a tene-
ment? In the next place, who would lay
out roach upon its insurance? But if any
one did, it was not likely that it would
cost more than 2s. 6d. per cent., and sup-
posing that a 10/. house was worth 200£.
the insurance would only be 5s. a year.
The fact was, however, that the rate was
only Is. 6d. per cent., another instance of
a most impolitic tax in England, and the
consequence would be, that they would
firid the qualification to be a very high
one, and that it would not be a rated
value of 8/., but a real value of more than
13/. or 14/. But what he wanted to
know, and what he could not understand,
was, why there was any qualification?
There was none in England, where it was
only required that the householder should
be rated for a certain length of time. In
Scotland there was a 10/. franchise, he
admitted, but why was it necessary there?
Because there was no rate as a test, and
it was considered desirable to establish
the same parliamentary and municipal
qualification to prevent a double registry;
but that was not the case in England; no
qualification was necessary here, from the
large cities down to the smallest towns:
being a householder for a certain length of
time was sufficient, and every holder of a
house had a right to vote. They had
tried the experiment; they had found the
result; there had been no riot, no confu-
sion; there had been no annoyance to
one class more than another; there had
been no partiality shown for one class
over another; for although under the ex-
citement of the first election, as under the
Reform Bill, one class had been preferred,
vet the distinction had become less and
less; but since, in Liverpool and other
towns, a large proportion of the council-
lors included in the new elections, he
believed nearly one-half, were of opposite
politics, he thwagbt that this good
working of the system ought to be well
considered and to be freely taken into
account in framing the Irish measure.
These opinions led bim to think, that they
ought to have adhered to the bill as it was
sent from the Commons. On the merits
of the measure itself he thought that it
was of importance, but in one point of
view it me most important, as being a
bill which Whs intended as a measure of
peace, and conciliation, and kindness,
towards Ireland. He did not say, that if
they passed the bill with his oobk Friend's


pablte asea 1a natiorjiJ affair*: bot all lint »»* required under the Mnoicipal franr-bite, mat, that the voter should be ab3e to teJl whether the town was well and rightly governed, whether the local affairs were properly conducted, whether the charities were properly administered; and he said, that the roost unlettered and unlearned individual in the town was as capable of forming a right opinion as to who was best to trust and to vote for in his own town fur town affairs as the clergyman, the banker, the attorney, or the best educated man in the borough. He believed, that there was some fear of Catholics promoting Catholic ascendancy by pursuing a just cause, but he thought that it was niggardly and improper to legislate on such grounds. He considered it both foolish and shameful to give a higher qualification to Ireland than was required in England. For these reasons he objected to the noble and learned Lord's amendments, although he would not object to the settlement of these too long unsettled questions upon the basis now proposed, the ground of his acquiescence being, that it would not be possible for many years to retain the test which was now proposed, for so surely as the system of rating should be a few years in operation, would the Irish have strong grounds for re-opening the question. They would appeal to their Lordships for justice, and he thought that their appeal to the justice of that House, and upon such grounds, must be attended with success.

Report received.

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Russell moved the appointment of the Committee on Militia Estimates.

Mr. Hume objected. He did not see that any benefit could result from its labours, and he did not believe, that in time of war the militia staff would be anything but useless.

Lord John Russell had consulted the Duke of Wellington upon this point, and he found that the opinion of the noble Duke differed very much from that of the hon. Member for Kilkenny.

Mr. Divett said, that it was impossible if a war broke out, that a militia staff could be of any use whatever.

Lord John Russell intended to introduce a measure by which the militia force would be rendered more effective.

Colonel Salwey said, that the militia was a most useful and constitutional force, and he regretted, that the noble Lord had taken the advice of the Duke of Wellington and reduced it. If the noble Lord would take the advice of his political friends they would be much better pleased.

Mr. Hume moved, that the committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records. He was desirous, as the committee was appointed, to have the subject fully investigated.

Sir H. Hardinge said, that if the hon. Member wanted to take the committee out of the hands of Government, he had better move for a select committee.

Mr. Hodges hoped, that the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) would take for the basis of any measure affecting the militia, a rule, that whenever they were assembled at any time they should be subject to martial law.

Lord John Russell said, he thought it better that an inquiry such as that proposed by the hon. Member for Kilkenny should be instituted at the commencement of the next Session.

The House divided on Mr. Hume's motion: Ayes 15; Noes 10'2 : Majority 77.

List of the Ayes.

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A'Court, Captain
Adam, Admiral
Alsager, Captain
Alston, H.
Anson, hon. Col.
Barnard, E. G.
Barrington, Viscount
Bernal, R.
Blackburne, I.
Blackstone, W.
Boldero, H. G.
Bowes, J.
Broad ley, H.
Brodie, W.B.
Bruges, VV. H. L.
Buller, Sir J. Y.
Campbell, Sir J.
Canning, Sir S.
Chute, W. L.W.
Conyngham, Lord
Corry, lion. II.
Craig, W. G.
Darby, G.
Denison, W. J.
Douglas, Sir C. E.
Dunbar, G.
Dundas, hon. T.
Egerton, W. T.
Elliot, hon. J. E.
Ferguson, R.
Filraer, Sir E.
Fleetwood, Sir P.
Freshfield, J. W.
Gladstone, W. E.
Gordon, Captain
Gore, O. W.
Goulburn, II.
Graham, Sir J.
Grant, F. W.
Grey, Sir G.
Grimsditcli, T.
Hale, R. B.
Ilardinge, Sir II.
Hawkes, T.
Heathcoate, G. J.
Ilerries, J. C.
Hodges, T. L,
Hodgson, R.
Hogg, J. W.
Hope, hon. C.
Hoskins, K.
Houldsworlh, T.

Hughes, VV. B.
Hurst, R. 11.
Hurt, F.
Ingham, R.
James, W.
James, Sir W. C.
Knight, H. G.
Labouchere, H.
Langton, W. G.
Lincoln, Earl of
Lowther, J. H.
Lygon, hon. General
Mackenzie, T.
Mahon, Viscount
Maule, hon. F.
Mildmay, P. St. J.
Miles, P. W. S
Parker, J.
Parker, R. T.
Patten, J. VV.
Perceval, Colonel
Perceval, hon. G.
Ponsonby, hon. J.
Praed, W. M.
Praed, W.T.
Price, Sir R.
Pryme, G.
Pusey, P.
Rushbrooke, R.
Russell, Lord J.
Sanford, E. A.
Seymour, Lord
Sibthorp, Col.
Somerset, Lord G.
Stanley, E. J.
Stanley, Lord
Stuart, Lord J.
Sturt, H. C.
Sugden, Sir E.
Thomson, C. P.
Vere, Sir C. B.
Vivian, Sir R. H.
VVaddington, II.
Walsh, Sir J.
White, A.
Wilmot, Sir J.
Wood, T.
Worsley, Lord
Wyndham, W.


Burrell, Sir C.
Steuart, R.

Glass Duties.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the third reading of the Glass Duties Bill.

Sir C. B. Vere wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman with respect lo an invention of a gentleman of

the name of Rutledge, of an instrument for ascertaining the quality and quantity of spirits distilled during the process of distillation. Such an invention would be a benefit to the distillers and also to the country. A report had been made by Dr. Birkbeck, which was favourable to the invention, and, he understood, that Professors Lubbock and Brantle also spoke favourably of it. He wished to know whether any step had been taken by Government lo test the invention?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it was true that, for some time, the attention of the Government had been called to the invention of Mr. Rutledge, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied, that if the experiment proved successful the result would be most important to the trade of this country and to the revenue. When he recollected the amount of public revenue that was derived from spirits, he felt it was his duty to approach such a subject with the greatest caution. He had availed himself of the services of some eminent men of science to consider this subject. Dr. Birkbeck entered into the fullest details, and he was, at the present time, of opinion, that the instrument would answer all the purposes for which it was intended. Two other eminent men, Professors Lubbock and Brande, had also expressed a favourable opinion, but they had not given the subject quite so much of their attention as Dr. Birkbeck. Three experiments had been tried in connexion with the Board of Excise, but no experiment testing the amount used as compared with the total amount of spirits produced had as yet been brought to a final result. He could only add, that he was taking the best means of bringing the matter to a final result, and if it succeeded no man would be more gratified than himself at such success.

The bill read a third time.

Mr. Hawkes then moved the insertion of the following clause: "And be it further enacted, that no maker or makers of glass shall make of common bottle metal any bottle or bottles smaller, or of less size or content, than what is commonly deemed or reputed an half-pint bottle; and if any maker or makers of glass shall make of common bottle metal, any bottle or bottles smaller, or of less size or content than aforesaid, the maker or makers of glass so offending shall, for every such

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