verted taste rather to live on the labour would nevertheless be the feelings of men, of others than to work for bread. With men actuated by the prejudices and the the exception of these classes, limited in feelings of human nature, and these men numbers, and with influence almost no- Irishmen, who, he would say, following thing, and with the exception of some few the noble Lord and his own sources of inorgans of the public press, who pandered formation, were like one man bandied toto the feelings to which he had adverted gether against the execution of the mea-with these exceptions, the English bill sure. The structure of the machine, was approved by the judgment, it was however, seemed to have been doubted sanctioned by the experience, it was adopt- by the engineer, for he found in the bill ed as the result of deliberate inquiry, and the celebrated 26th section, in which, it was pleasing as well to the honest, the after the previous regulations for the virtuous, and the laborious, as it was to election of guardians, power was given to the upper and middle classes in the State. the commissioners to be used without any Above all, that bill found an uniform, a control; and here an observation or two steady, and a cordial support from all might be made, only that they were so classes to whose hands the practical ex- many that they would not be able to see ecution of the measure was necessarily the wood for the branches of the tree, intrusted. Was that the case in Ireland? that he was indisposed to enter upon them. Nothing of the kind. The majority of the The commissioners were trusted with the men to whom the execution must be in- unrestrained power of appointing at their trusted were banded together against it discretion as many paid officers as they they abjured, they abhorred, they detested pleased, provided that they were only to it. They said, Give us any thing but be in office for one year. If they wanted this bill, if you mean to do good to Ire- guardians, the commissioners might order land." For the purpose of his argument, a new election; and if that order were these persons might be wrong; this might not complied with, they might exercise be all a delusion, a fallacy-nay, it might an unlimited power of appointing an unbe a string of fallacies and a succession of known number, and of apportioning an dreams; but unless they showed him that unstinted salary. He had heard it stated, the nature of the Irish character was such that there had been upwards of 7,000 that one month or six months of firm re- applicants for appointments under this flection would alter their strongest feelings, bill in Ireland already. Heaven help the or warp their preconceived notions-ex- unhappy commissioner who had to procept they showed him something in the Irish ceed to Dublin to have the whole power of mind, and not only in the Irish heart, as the board intrusted to his hands, and to well as in the understanding, some prone- make these appointments at his good will ness to a difference from the more steady and pleasure! He could not figure to men in the north (although he did not be- himself a more awful scene than the levee lieve that there was such a material differ- of that gentleman in Dublin, as soon as ence between them), that the mere passing the 26th section should be about to be of the law, that the mere utterance of the put into force. He could imagine nothing words La reine le veut," would all at once more awful than beholding that Gentleman convert these opposers, he would not say surrounded by these 7,000 cormorants for into active co-operators, but into calm and office. To attend to the working of the indifferent spectators, and that it would bill? To receive and attend to the instrucprevent resistance unless they showed him tions from Somerset-house! To read the all that, though he anticipated no such mi-bill even! He could not conceive the racle, the bill could never successfully operate. They talked of mechanism and of machinery, of springs and of checks, of similies (as was well observed by a noble Lord) drawn from mechanics; they talked as though, by the royal assent, they would get the steam-engine, but they forgot that they had not got the wheels and the piston and the regulator, unless, indeed, the commissioners were to act as the governor or regulator, and that the motive power commissioner to do anything of the kind, for he would not have anything else to do for a time, than to answer these applications. The first thing required of him would be to put the 26th section into force. He would most likely, however, put up a notice stating, that it was not hist intention to put that section into force. Then would follow an universal uproar all through Ireland to call it into action. In the meanwhile persons would not meet to 1 make a choice of guardians. This would arise partly from a dislike of the bill, and partly from a liking of the patronage. The 7,000 applicants would very soon increase to 10,000, and the retreat of that 10,000, would no doubt soon have to be recorded. So that between the two causes operating, the consequence would be, sooner or later, that the floodgate would be opened, the 26th section would be put in force, and the appointment of stipendiary and paid agents would take place almost all over Ireland. It had been uniformly stated, by all the friends and advocates of this measure, that its success entirely depended on its becoming agreeable to the people of Ireland, by the aid of whom alone it could be carried into execution. The subject had undergone many discussions in both Houses of Parliament: many able speeches, though not very convincing ones, had been delivered, and many spirit-stirring and effective appeals to the passions had been made in its favour; much had been written for it; and, above all, the authority of Parliament in many divisions had been interposed in support of it. There was a great difference between England and Ireland in this respect; namely, that in England, the effect of a large majority on a division in either House of Parliament, and more especially in the representative House, was at once to put down a very strong popular feeling, and to give currency to the opinion of those who composed that majority. That was the case in England; but it was not so in Ireland. The mute eloquence of numbers had no more weight in Ireland than the vocal eloquence of the tongue had had in swaying the feelings, or than the argumentative efforts of the supporters of the bill appeared to have had in persuading the reason and leading the judgment of that portion of the United Kingdom. He believed, from the latest information he had received, that there was a more strong, a more decided, and a more general opinion against that measure, and a greater repugnance to it now than years ago, before one speech, one debate, one argument, or one division had been made of taken upon it. He, therefore, looked upon it as hopeless of obtaining fit instruments for its proper and due working in that country; for the people of Ireland were much less likely to turn round and change their opinions upon the subject, seeing that those opinions were right. As to the workhouse system, to which he had on a former occasion adverted, it was still his opinion that that system would be as strongly opposed by the people in Ireland as ever it had been in this country. It had been said, that there was to be no out-door relief. But he believed nothing of the kind. He did not see how it was possible, as long as men were men, for the commissioner-above all, the guardians, whom he did not expect to see working, or the paid officers, whom he did expect to see covering and blackening the land-to resist the feelings of natural kindness, by the almost necessary compunction of which they would be impelled, if not compelled, to break through the principle of the bill, and give out-door relief. He had said somewhat of the state of Ireland, and of the character of that people, and had alluded to the evidence which they had of the extreme hatred which was borne by them to this measure. God knew, he had but little knowledge beyond that of hearsay of their character, and he confessed he ought to speak with still more distrust of his information and of his opinion with respect to their feelings in reference to this bill, than even of their character as a people; for never did he know a more puzzling, a more bewildering case than almost everything, in point of fact, relating to the circumstances and situation of this system. Upon all other subjects, one day assertions the most positive, the most specific, and made with the most undoubted and unhesitating confidence, were brought forward as to the state of Ireland; another day, and from the same quarter, to make it the more puzzling, statements diametrically the reverse, were put forth. One in whom he was led to confide, with all their Lordships, had said, that there never had been a state of tranquillity so complete-never prosperity so unbroken-never so little crime-never so few outrages-never such undisturbed peacefulness, as reigned over the kingdom of Ireland during the administration of his noble Friend, the present Chief Governor of that country. How were his praises and how justly-sung forth by eloquent tongues out of doors, and by yet more eloquent tongues within the walls of both Houses of Parliament. Grateful to him it was, to hear those praises; and he felt still higher gratification in joining his voice in chorus with those on all sides of their Lordships' | try, had recently given a very different House. But what was his astonishment description of the state of the people there. to receive such a letter as that which he If he were to disbelieve the private letters now held in his hand, coming from one he had received, and were to say, that Ireof the most strenuous supporters of the land was tranquil, and that all was well Government! What a different story did and peaceful there, he should be running it tell! It mentioned, that while upon all down Mr. O'Connell, who was the great other subjects, there existed many different authority upon that subject. He did not opinions; upon the subject of the poor- think, that any man knew Ireland better law, there was only one opinion. Upon than, or so well as, that hon. and learned that question, there existed no doubt; no Gentleman. Yet that hon. and learned discrepancy, no difference of opinion what- Gentleman, contrary to his own testimony soever. The writer declared, that he was for the last three or four years-whose quite disheartened and disgusted with the influence in Ireland was one of the most present state of the country, and was as- extraordinary circumstances in the state of tonished at the change since he last visited that country-and whose sway there made. it two years ago. Men, formerly peace- him the very last man in all the world to able, had become organized and dangerous say one word against the peaceful state of assassins against whose outrages the law its inhabitants, unless the admission were was perfectly powerless. It was wonder- extorted from him by the overwhelming ful (the writer observed), that the ma- presence of facts; even Mr. O'Connell jority of such and such houses should be had said, within the last ten days, that so ignorant of the real state of Ireland, Ireland, never since he knew it, was in so and should indulge in the idle dream of dangerous a state as now. What, then, pacifying that country by a poor-law bill. was he to believe? Was he to believe Why, if they were to add a municipal bill the statement made in their Lordships' to that, and to a municipal bill, a bill for House six months ago, or was he to bethe total abolition of tithes, it would not lieve the statement which had been made have the smallest effect upon this poverty- only six days ago? Was he to believe stricken country. The writer proceeded that, in Ireland, all was tranquil; or that to say,Ireland was never in a worse or more "One can scarcely be aware of the dreadful state of this country. No man's life is worth an hour's purchase. The reign of terror is established, which every man feels and acknowledges. I recently saw so and so, who told me of being attacked in the middle of the day, two miles from the capital of this county, and on the mail-coach road, and of being so cruelly and barbarously beaten, that his life is despaired of." dangerous state?-that it was in such a state that you could not be sure, at any one moment, that there might not, in the next moment, be somebody who, by holding up a finger, might create a revolt of a hundred thousand men? That was a most awful state of things. One moral he drew from it was, that very little in general could be confided in of what was described as the real state of Ireland. He was aware, that it might be said, This, however, he thought was clear, that that nothing was more absurd than that of there was but one opinion prevailing arguing from a letter; but he had received throughout that country on the subject of other letters from other parties. What the poor-law, and that that opinion was puzzled him was, that those letters so ma- one entirely adverse to it. No man could terially differed from the returns laid be- stand up in that House and say, that this fore their Lordships. He was aware, that bill was not most unpopular in Ireland. private letters were the more unlikely to Was it, then, safe or prudent, when Irebe correct, still they showed what was the land was in such a state, to apply only general impression in Ireland. He should such a remedy as this? He had always not, however, have taken any notice of been of opinion, that great changes were these statements, if totally opposite ac- necessary in Ireland to make the union counts of the same things had not come complete. He was always of opinion, that from one and the same quarter. The hon. the abolition of the office of Lord-lieutenant and learned Gentleman, who was the very was one of those changes. It was essential, first to cry up, and most justly so, the in order to consolidate the two com exertions of the Lord-lieutenant of Ire- in all respects, and making no m land, to promote the peace of that coun-ference between Yorkshire and than between Scotland and Yorkshire; | Lord Anglesey. If, then, that should not Ireland having no more occasion for a be the panacea-he did not give it as such viceroy than Yorkshire or Scotland. If but, if it were not a mitigation of the he erred in this opinion, he erred, at least, in the company of great men. He erred in company of some who were at present living-he meant, among others, his excellent and hon. Friend, than whom there was no better historian, and none better qualified to give an opinion upon the subject-he meant Sir Henry Parnell. That sentiment had been avowed by his hon. Friend, not only in his writings, but in the motions which he had made in his place in Parliament. He erred with the venerated authorities of past times; with the authors of the Irish union; with Lord Grenville most distinctly; with Mr. Pitt, as he had good reason to know. He had erred with those of their followers, whom many of their Lordships had trusted inore than, perhaps, he was disposed to confide in them. He erred with Lord Liverpool, who had matured a plan for abolishing the Lord-lieutenancy of Ireland, and thereby completing the union. He erred with other men who, in his mind, deserved to be well remembered, men who upon any Irish question, could never be kept secret or concealed for their merits, and who had at all times, from their earliest day, when they originally were the advocates of Irish emancipation with Mr. Grattan and his coadjutors, down to later times, when they still adhered to the doctrine of Catholic emancipation--having been originally the advocates of the greater emancipation of the Irish-their independence-he meant the breaking the shackles of Ireland by repealing Poyning's law-but being of late, also, the advocate with Mr. Pitt of Catholic emancipation-they had never ceased, in and out of office, to urge, whenever they deemed that it was possible to urge that great measure, and to urge it even before it was possible to carry it, that, at all events, while upholding the viceroyalty, the administration of Irish affairs, both of Catholics and Protestants, should be in all respects treated upon an equal footing. He erred with Lord Wellesley, to whom he had now alluded. He it was of whom he had now spoken; and the noble Lord would forgive him if he was mistaken in believing, that he erred also with another of the greatest and best of governors that ever held over Ireland with equal hand the balance of her fate-he meant the present evils of Ireland, at all events it ought to then before them would afford no substantial relief to the poor of Ireland-believing that it would effect much harm and no good, he begged leave in that, its last stage, to enter his serious, solemn, and conscientious protest against it. Viscount Melbourne said, the pervading topic and ruling argument which ran through the whole of the noble and learned Lord's speech, was the extreme unpopularity of the bill in the country to which it was intended to be applied-the reluctance, nay, the utter detestation with which it was regarded by all classes of the community. He knew that many petitions had been presented against it; he knew, that many speeches had been made against it, both in that and the other House of Parliament; but he very much doubted whether there was such a strength of feeling against it-such a general repugnance and opposition to the bill, as would in any way justify the sweeping condemnation of the noble and learned Lord. He knew, that there was a pretty general feeling against the bill in the minds of the Irish gentry a feeling which made him doubt whether the measure had been fairly represented to those humbler classes for whose benefit it was intended. If fairly represented to the poor, he did not believe, that they would entertain such sentiments with respect to it as had been stated by the noble and learned lord. He admitted, that there was a vast difference in the condition of Ireland as compared with that of England; he admitted, too, that the measure then before them was one that would probably be attended with much difficulty in its first application; but he saw neither in the difference between the two countries, nor in the difficulties by which the bill might at first be attended, anything that made him despair of its ultimately working to the great advantage and improvement of the destitute poor in Ireland. The opposition that had been raised to the bill did not convince him either that its principle was bad, or its machinery inefficient. It would be remembered that a similar outcry was raised in both Houses of Parliament against the English Poor-law Amendment Act; but now that that bill had been in operation for several years, he believed there were few in either House who would be bold enough to state that that measure had not operated most beneficially. It was admitted on all hands that it was necessary to do something for the relief of the poor in Ireland. By the present Bill it was proposed to give that relief in the only shape in which it was supposed it could be safely administered; and he thought their Lordships would hardly be doing their duty if at that late moment of the Session they were to cut the measure short, and to refuse to give to Ireland the advantages which might fairly be expected to flow from it. He could not persuade himself that a bill which promised so much good to the poor of Ireland could be so extremely unpopular throughout the whole of that country because it would impose some additional charges upon the landlords. He believed, on the contrary, that the bill would be well received, that it would produce very beneficial effects; that it would introduce habits of order; that it would raise the character of the people, and lead to the gradual discouragement of vagrancy and begging, without encroaching upon or vitiating or corrupting the feeling of charity which was so honourable to the country. It was upon these grounds that he advised their Lordships to pass the Bill. He was not insensible to the difficulties which might attend its execution. Mr. O'Connell said, that Ireland was too poor for a poor law. A noble Earl opposite said, that the Irish gentry would be totally ruined and destroyed by a poor law; and several noble Lords had said, very significantly, "Ireland will not raise a poorrate." These were serious arguments; but he did not believe, that they were sufficient to outweigh the advantage which he was satisfied would result from the bill. Therefore he recommended it most earnestly to their Lordships' adoption. Lord Plunkelt said, that he did not pretend to promise that the bill would have all the good effects which were calculated on by those who supported it. Still, he was prepared to maintain, that it would do some good. He believed, that the bill would do great good, for it would aid in relieving the misery of the poor of Ireland. He conceived that at this moment Ireland was in a state of tranquillity, and he said this, notwithstanding the opinions to the contrary, which had been expressed by those who had assailed the Government, and yet who never had ventured to bring these charges against the government to a distinct motion. |