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Thomson, Alderman

Manners, Lord C. S. Waddington, H.

White, A. Wyndham, W.

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Ingestrie, Lord

Style, Sir C.

Kemble, H.

Meynell, Capt.

Ord, W.

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TELLERS

Bell, M. Pease, J.

List of the NOES.

Langdale, hon. C.
Marshall, W.
Maule, hon. F.
Melgund, Lord
Mildmay, P. St. J.
Miles, P. W, S.
Morpeth, Viscount
Morris, D.

Murray, J. A.
Nicholl, J.
O'Connell, J.
O'Connell, M.
O'Ferrall, R. M.
Paget, F.
Palmer, C. F.
Parnell, Sir H.
Pattison, J.
Pechell, Captain
Perceval, G. J.
Polhill, F.
Power, J.
Price, Sir R.

Rich, H.
Rundle, J.
Salwey, Colonel
Sanford, E.
Somerset, Lord G.
Somerville, Sir W. M.
Stewart, James
Stuart, Lord J.

Bainbridge, E. T.

Baines, E.

Barnard, E. G.

Barry, G. S.

Bewes, T.

Blake, M. J.

Blake, W. J.

Bridgeman, H.

Brodie, W. B.

Brotherton, J.

Bryan, G.

Callaghan, D.

Campbell, Sir J.

Cayley, E. S.

Clay, W.

Clements, Lord

Crawford, W.

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BANKRUPTS' ESTATES (SCOTLAND) BILL.] The Lord Advocate moved, that the further consideration of the Bankrupts' Estates (Scotland) Bill be deferred till Saturday.

Sir W. Rae wished to know whether it were intended to proceed with a bill which made such an immense change in the law at this period of the Session? Here was a bill which had taken four or five years to prepare, and in which there were not less than 145 clauses, and at this period of the Session it could not be expected to pass both Houses. It was intended to throw the blame on the House of Lords of rejecting the bill, and he did not think that was a fair position in which to place that House. He trusted, that it would be withdrawn until the next Session, and then brought fairly before the House. He moved, that it be further considered that day month.

The Lord Advocate was rather surprised at the tone of his right hon. Friend. No doubt this bill had been before the House for five years, but similar bills had been before the House twelve or fifteen years, and it was extremely difficult to obviate the various objections made to the bill. If there was any ground for further deliberation he had no objection to give the opportunity. If his right hon. Friend had adopted a different tone, he might, perhaps, have been disposed to accede to his suggestions, but under the present circumstances he could not.

The House divided on the original motion: Ayes 62; Noes 34: Majority 28,

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Finch, F.

Pattison, J.

Gillon, W. D.

Pechell, Captain

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COUNTING OUT THE | notwithstanding the treatment he had received from the hands of the Government, the House would allow him to say, that the question was one of paramount importance and magnitude, and that if the attention of the Government were not shortly directed to it, the office of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department, however burdensome it might

times more burdensome. He did not ask the House to affirm any new principle. He was simply desirous to lay before the House what he considered an unparalleled state of things, and he wanted the House to say whether they would enforce or repeal the existing law. He held it to be inconsistent both with the character of the House, and with the safety of the empire at large, to leave a law affecting the welfare of 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 human beings in such a state, that no one of its provisions was observed, that it was deliberately and impudently violated every day, and that it was left not only for five years, but was most likely to be left for another year, without a possibility of redress, while they positively refused to hear any statement upon the part of the persons aggrieved. It might be inconsistent in

FACTORIES. HOUSE.] Lord Ashley would ask where the noble Lord, (Lord John Russel,) was yesterday, when the Government, of which he was a member, was instrumental in counting out the House? Why had the House been so counted out, within a very few minutes of the period fixed for its reassembling, and when the legitimate number of members would have been forth-be now, would speedily become a million with in attendance. By this means, he was again deprived of the opportunity of exposing the most abominable system which had ever disgraced and degraded a civilized nation. The noble Lord opposite and the House knew full well the mode in which this question had been treated. They knew full well how to repeat a phrase which he had used before, and from which he did not shrink; how he had been mocked and deluded. On the 22nd of June last, he had hoped to have an opportunity of making his statement; but the noble Lord had triumphed by the small majority of eight. He had then given a notice three weeks from that period, and had fixed upon a notice-day. Yesterday was the day. The House met by adjournment at 6 o'clock, and no sooner did it meet, than it was proposed that it should be counted, and was count-him to move, that the order for going ed out. Immediately upon that motion being made, one of the Lords of the Treasury, the hon. Member for Haddington, ran out of the House, and other Members of the Government went into a different lobby. There were other hon. Members present who would bear witness to this statement. He had himself seen the hon. Member for Haddington leave the House, and with him the person who should have last thought of taking such a course. He alluded to the hon. Member for Durham, himself a very large mill-owner, and one of those whom he would have put on his defence. The House was thus counted out before those hon. Members who were listening to the debate in the Lords could have an opportunity of attending. Even as it was, the attendance of members amounted to thirty-seven. He was extremely sorry at being obliged to adopt any extraordinary course to bring on his motion. He should have liked very much to bring it on in a more legitimate way. The noble Lord opposite and the House might think the person who had the honor to introduce this subject to their notice to be himself a very despicable person. But,

into Committee of supply be taken before any of the other orders of the day, because in doing so he should be moving the supply for the purpose of its being rejected; but he had given notice, that if the order of supply were brought forward, he would move his amendment; and if the order of supply were moved at so late a period that he would not have time to bring forward his amendment, he would then move, that the Committee of supply be adjourned to Monday. He appealed to the House for its support in this matter; and, please God, he was fully determined that this statement should be laid before the Commons of England, when he trusted to obtain a full and fitting answer, and to have something done at last on the subject of this great and crying evil.

Mr. R. Steuart said, that whatever blame he had incurred in this matter, he alone was responsible for it, and that he had not seen the hon. Member for Durham at all upon the occasion referred to: He begged, distinctly, to deny, that he had any previous communication with any single member of the Government upon the subject; and the Under Secretary of

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State had expressed to him immediately
afterwards his deep regret that the House
should have been counted out.

subject. Knowing, then, as he did, the opposition which was growing up against the bill, and the great anxiety there was upon the part of the House to have a bill proposed when there should be time for deliberation, he thought it best the bill should be postponed. The noble Lord had it in his power when the question of supply was moved, to make any statement he pleased on the factory question. He, (Lord J. Russell) had heard from Members upon both sides of the House, con

Mr. Wallace could confirm the statement that his hon. Friend, the Member for Falkirk, consulted no one when he moved that the House be counted out.

Lord J. Russell could state nothing about what occurred in the House yesterday, not having been present at the time. He returned to the House a few moments afterwards, with the view of attending the motion of the noble Lord. Nothing would induce him to say, that the noble Lord, in bringing forward his motion, was actuated by any desire to embarrass the Government, or interfere with the other proceed-siderable apprehensions as to the conseings of the House. On the contrary, he quences of raising any excitement at the knew the deep interest which the noble present moment about the question. The Lord took in the factory question, and noble Lord took a different view of the that in the prosecution of it, he had acted matter. All that he wished to say was, in the most honourable manner. He did that when the noble Lord proposed to think, however, that the noble Lord, in his bring on his bill before the Irish Tithe great anxiety about the question, was apt Bill, he had an opportunity of making his to overlook the real facts of the case. He statement, if he pleased. The noble Lord had stated to the House, that, one could not expect that the law would not way or another, he was prevented by the be violated, but it was satisfactory to Government from making a statement of know, that by the last reports of the infacts connected with the factory question. spectors, the law appeared to be more Now, the noble Lord must admit, that if generally observed. he were wrong in postponing the question, he himself was also wrong in not bringing it fully forward when he moved it before the Order of the Day upon Irish Tithes. On the day when the bill stood among the orders of the day, the noble Lord proposed to take it before the Irish Tithe Bill. Surely he had then an opportunity of stating to the House any facts which he thought proper, and no one would have prevented him from doing so. He might also have convinced the House, that his bill ought to have precedence of the Irish Tithe Bill. The House, however, upon the reasons which he adduced, decided against him by a majority of eight, and he now complained of the conduct of that majority. With respect to the interest which the Government, it was said, took in the matter, he must say, that the noble Lord was entirely wrong in supposing, that there was any particular wish or intention on the part of the Government to evade Lord Ashley considered himself bound or put off the factory question. If he had strictly to show to the House, reasons why understood from the noble Lord before he one order should be taken before another. proposed putting the bill off, that the He had endeavoured to do so as well as noble Lord had any particular wish so to he was able, but at the same time he had do, he (Lord J. Russell) would have con- too much regard for the time and feelings sidered whether it might not be taken of the House to obtrude upon them, and before some other Order of the Day. Nei-weary them with a variety of minute statether then, however, nor in the question ments out of place and at an improper which the noble Lord put, did he appear time. If he had, upon that occasion, to manifest any great anxiety upon the gone into the whole subject fully, the

Mr. Labouchere could also add his testimony, that there was not the slightest concert upon the part of the Government to put off the noble Lord's motion. He did not think the noble Lord would require him to produce any witnesses, but if he were to appeal to any one, it would perhaps, be to the Speaker, whom he met shortly after the House was over, when his right hon. Friend expressed his regret, in which he concurred, at there being no House, as it would so much retard the progress of public business. The occurrence, in his belief, was only to be attributed to the natural, and perhaps, not inexcusable indisposition of hon. Members to sit for eight or nine hours in the evening after having sat for four in the day.

noble Lord would have been the first to call him to order. The noble Lord had stated, that he did not appear to manifest any anxiety upon the subject of the Factory Bill. Now, he would appeal to the House, whether he had not asked the noble Lord questions upon the subject usque ad nauseam? He would also appeal to the Under-Secretary of State, whether he did not apply to him not to deceive him upon the subject, but really and fairly to give him an opportunity of discussing the question. The noble Lord was proceeding to animadvert upon the conduct of Government, when he was interrupted by cries of "Order."

The Speaker said, the noble Lord's remark was not necessary for the purpose of explanation.

The matter dropped.

PRISONS (ENGLAND).] The House went into Committee on the Prisons (England) Bill.

On Clause 10,

Mr. Langdale moved, by way of amendment, a proviso to the effect, that in cases where the number of prisoners in a gaol not belonging to the Established Church, amounted to fifty, an assistant-chaplain should be appointed.

Mr. F. Maule thought the proposition not unreasonable.

Sir C. Knightley remarked, that if the hon. Gentleman's principles were acted upon in its full extent, there might be as many clergymen in a gaol as there were prisoners.

Mr. O'Connell thought, that religious instruction should be provided for prisoners differing in sentiment from the Established Church, where the number might be considered to require it.

Mr. W. E. Gladstone could not immediately concur in the principle laid down in the motion. It was one of great importance, not recognised in any legislative enactment, and, he believed, unheard-of in England, though it had been acted upon in Ireland. It was too important to be established in this way, for it must be extended to all workhouses as well as to prisons. Sufficient facilities, he believed, were already given to clergymen of the various denominations to obtain access to the prisoners who coincided with them, for the purpose of religious instruction.

Mr. F. Maule declared his intention to support the clause proposed by Mr. Lang

dale. He put it to hon. Members opposite, whether they would be content to see fifty unfortunate wretches confined in one of our prisons, refusing to attend the ministration of the chaplains of the Established Church, and yet consent to deprive them of the religious advice and consolation which they would derive from the presence of a minister of their own religion? In fixing a limit, you must stop somewhere, and fifty seemed as good a limit as any at which they could stop, seeing that they had already assented to a clause that wherever there were fifty persons incarcerated, professing the faith of the Established Church, there was a necessity to call in the services of a claplain.

Mr. G. Palmer opposed the proposition, because, if they gave up one point after another, it would tend to annihilate the interests of the Established Church.

Mr. O'Connell considered the argument of the hon. Member who had spoken last, as one of the most preposterous ones which he had ever heard in the whole course of his life from a well-educated Gentleman. The hon. Member for Newark had told them, that the principle embodied in this clause was a new principle-[Mr. Gladstone: In England.] Oh! it was an old principle in Ireland, and as he had been accused-oh, how often!-of crying, as they say, falsely, "Justice for Ireland," he would just try for once how the hon. Gentlemen opposite would relish his raising the cry-oh, how truly!-of "Justice for England." The question, however, was not whether this be a new principle, but whether it be a good principle, and he considered it to be a good principle to instruct every man in the principles of morality according to his own notions of the Christian religion. He considered this clause to be essentially necessary, because, in many gaols where Roman Catholics had been confined, and had demanded the aid of a Roman Catholic chaplain, their demands had been peremptorily refused. Now, such an exercise was a great abuse of power; and if this clause were passed, they would get rid of it altogether.

Mr. Hume said, that prisons now were conducted on the principle of reformation. If, therefore, reformation was their object, they could not shut up fifty persons dissenting from the principles of the Established Church without affording them some religious advice and instruction. In voting

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