Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Well, I am trying to get at what is the attitude of these prominent men from these universities. I am

Mr. CADWALADER. I am not speaking for prominent men. not a millionaire, and I do not know what their attitude is. I am just telling what the attitude of prominent men who have given their lives to education on very moderate salaries, so far as I know, think about this thing.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I will carry it this much further to illustrate my position. I am not criticizing particularly, but I want to get the idea before the committee. I am wondering if gentlemen who contribute so liberally to some of our great universities are not influenced by the opinions of the presidents of these universities ofttimes expressed with much emphasis.

Mr. CADWALADER. I do not know who you are talking about, Mr. Leatherwood.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I am not at liberty to mention the names, but I know exactly what my facts are.

The CHAIRMAN. In order to get the record clear, I want to ask you one question. Of course, regarding a piece of legislation that is controversial, people make broad general statements. Do you question the sincerity, the motives, or the patriotism of the people who are the proponents of this bill?

Mr. CADWALADER. Mr. Reed, it is not for me to question anybody's motives, particularly persons that I do not know. I do not know Doctor Strayer. I would not know him if I saw him.

The CHAIRMAN. I am speaking of the distinguished people that come here, educators.

Mr. CADWALADER. But I will say this: The National Education Association, as I understand, went on record in 1923 or thereabouts in favor of the Smith-Towner bill that provided for an appropriation of $100,000,000 to be matched by the same amount from the States. Now, that is a matter of record. And that money, if I remember rightly, was to be used mainly to increase teachers' salaries, and the members of the National Education Association were teachers whose salaries would be affected by the passage of that legislation.

The CHAIRMAN. There was a great shortage of teachers at that time, was there not?

Mr. CADWALADER. I do not know whether there was or not. The CHAIRMAN. The record of the survey showed it at that time. Mr. CADWALADER. Maybe there was.

The CHAIRMAN. In fact, hundreds of schools were closed for want of teachers. There was a great national emergency at the time. Mr. CADWALADER. I am not criticizing, but I say they had an interest in it.

The CHAIRMAN. What I am getting at is-that there has been a tendency here to slur these people that come here and testify-the people who belong to the National Education Association. I do not believe it is the intention of men of your type to slur or question their motives.

Mr. CADWALADER. No, sir; it is not. I will say this: My State of Maryland has recently had a public testimonial given to is educational system by educators from other States, notably a group of North Carolinians who traveled through Maryland investigating our schools

and made a most flattering report which got into the papers, and I read it within a week. Now, it may be that the heads of our State school system, or some of them, are in favor of this legislation. I do not know whether they are or not. I know that our governor is opposed to it. Now, I would not think of criticizing the views of those people. They are entitled to just as much liberty of opinion as I am. I just felt that you wanted the record straight on that point. Mr. BLACK. Were you not rather surprised when the National Educational Association, after appearing before Congress urging the department of education largely because of the Federal-aid feature, involving the expenditure of a tremendous sum, suddenly shifted to the support of a bill that did not contain Federal aid?

Mr. CADWALADER. Certainly I was surprised. I do not see what they want this for.

Mr. BLACK. They advanced the argument here based on Federal aid, and then all of a sudden they dropped that overnight and came out urging a Federal department of education simply because of this research work.

Mr. CADWALADER. I think, whatever else may be said, that this is intended by some of them, perhaps not all, but by the guiding spirits in the movement as an entering wedge, and when they get the department of education then the argument will be made before the next Congress or before two or three Congresses hence: "Why, we have a secretary of education, we have a department, and it could do so much more if you give it more money and give it a little more functions."

The CHAIRMAN. That is purely your own opinion.

Mr. CADWALADER. It is my opinion, but it has been our experience with almost everything else.

Mr. SEARS. If the Government is going to take notice of education at all, then I suppose the subject of education is big enough so that it is entitled to have a department? Is not that true?

Mr. CADWALADER. Why, certainly. If education is a proper function of the Federal Government at all it should have had a department long ago.

Mr. Sears. Then this should pass?

Mr. CADWALADER. This should pass at this time if education were such a proper function. That is a great big "if." It is not, under the Constitution.

Mr. SEARS. Why should not the question resolve itself in your mind as to whether education was a proper subject for the Govern ment to take notice of; if it was, yes; if not, no?

Mr. CADWALADER. Yes, that is it.

Mr. SEARS. Well, that brings it down to a very simple proposition. The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the committee stands adjourned until 10.30 to-morrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 5.15 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 o'clock a. m., Saturday, March 28, 1928.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION,
Saturday, April 28, 1928.

The committee this day met, Hon. Daniel A. Reed of Pennsylvania (chairman) presiding.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES F. DOLLE, CINCINNATI, OHIO, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF CATHOLIC MEN

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Please give your name and official title to the stenographer.

Mr. DOLLE. I am Charles F. Dolle, executive secretary of the National Council of Catholic Men. That is an organization composed of nine of the great national Catholic lay groups throughout the country and about 1,500 local Catholic lay societies. I could give you, if you wish me to, at this time the exact composition of it by groups.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be very fine.

Mr. DOLLE. There are in the National Council of Catholic Men nine national organizations-the Knights of St. George; the Central-Verein of America, an organization of German Catholics, largely in the Middle West; the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Supreme Council; National Alliance of Bohemian Catholics of America; Knights of St. John, Supreme Commandery; the Catholic Club of the City of New York; the Ancient Order of Hibernians, the American Catholic Union.

In addition to these national societies there are 727 parish units of the National Council of Catholic Men. They have in their membership all of the Catholic men of the parish.

There are also in our organization about 800 local Catholic lay societies located throughout the United States. I am giving you this so that you will see that what we represent is really a fairly representative cross section of the Catholic opinion of the country. Mr. KVALE. Do you represent the Knights of Columbus?

Mr. DOLLE. Yes. I can also by express authority of the supreme board of the Knights of Columbus speak for them. If you will allow me, I will refer to this memorandum I have with me, because I do not want to wander from the important things I would like to say. I am appearing before the committee on behalf of the National Council of Catholic Men, a voluntary association composed of approximately 1,500 of the Catholic lay groups of the United States. These lay societies count among their numbers Catholic laymen in practically every State in the Union, their membership ranging, I would say, from 100 among the lowest to 5,000 individials among the strongest of these societies. In addition, as I stated, there are nine national lay organizations included in our membership, and these have approximately 3,000 subordinate branches distributed throughout the country, so that I appear for a very representative cross section of the citizenship of this country.

The Catholic citizens of this country have been familiar with this legislation which has been proposed in previous Congresses substantially in the same terms as it is provided for in this bill. The groups which I represent have examined this measure and desire me to present to you their objections to it.

With regard to it I will say that two years ago, before the joint hearings of the House and Senate, we sent to our groups the measures which was pending then. They then presented this matter to their members at their meetings and certified into my office the action which they took upon it. At that time we filed 340 of their original protests giving their reasons for opposing this legislation. We did not give them the reasons; we merely advised the organizations, leaving them entirely free to act as they might see fit in the matter. I filed at that time their objections to it, and I would like the permission of this committee to introduce that same record here, because, as a matter of fact, the present bill is practically identical with the one then under consideration with the exception of section 10. That section provides for a Federal council of education. If you will allow me to do it I will file for your record the same list I filed at that time.

(The list referred to is as follows):

Protests against the Curtis-Reed bill have been received from the following: Emil F. Reichel, St. Francis Court 1105, 1815 Cortlandt Avenue, Norwood, Ohio.

Oscar F. Burger, Lima Court 1331, Union Street, Lima, Ohio.

John Boehmer, Sacred Heart Court 264, 1412 West Edwards Street, Springfield, Ill.

Edward S. Gorman, jr., St. Aloysius Court 27, 822 North Avers Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

John Kunge, St. Clemens Court 747, Bismarck, N. Dak.

Joseph Zupamiet, St. George Court 960, Chicago, Ill.

Levi Kellum, Holy Angels Court 1466, 1981 Madison Road, Cincinnati, Ohio. W. S. Arle, Columbus Court 341, Sturgeon Bay, Wis.

A. V. Friday, St. John's Court 1807, Stevens Point, Wis.

Joseph C. Stoffel, Sacred Heart Court 963, 985 East Fifth Street, St. Paul, Minn.

F. Leo Hummel, St. Leo Court 1475, Columbus, Ohio.

H. C. Wilberding, jr., Holy Ghost Court 636, Route No. 1., Dubuque, Iowa. St. Charles Court 851, Canton, Ohio.

Chris Schmitt, St. Cloud Court, St. Cloud, Minn.

F. W. Meyer, St. Mary's Court 1382, West Brooklyn, Ill.

St. Mary's Court, Minneapolis, Minn.

C. O. F. Perham, Minn.

May Ratabaugh, Lead, S. Dak.

St. Joseph Court 349, H. Joseph Stegmeyer, Milwaukee, Wisc.

Rev. F. W. Maley, St. Joseph Church, Lynn, Mass.

John L. Keelrowski, Holy Trinity Church Branch, Royalton, Minn.

Rev. James T. Landigan, St. Patrick's Parish, Natick, Mass.

William Jos. O'Brennan, Baltimore Section, 413 Cathedral Street, Baltimore, Md.

Daniel J. Walsh, Newark Diocesan Federation, 321 Livingston Street, Elizabeth, N. J.

Walter C. Curran, St. John the Evangelist Parish, Baltimore, Md.

Francis M. Lally, St. Charles Branch, Woonsocket, R. I.

Clarence A. Schneiders, St. Anthony Parish 205, Southern Ohio Bank Building, Cincinnati, Ohio.

P. McLaughlin, Wakefield, Mass.

Arthur F. Skala, Nativity Branch, St. Louis, Mo.

Rev. D. H. Francis, St. Josephs Parish, Cincinnati, Ohio.

James P. Kirby, St. Monica's Parish, 1510 Wolf Street, Philadelphia, Pa.

C. J. Stoecklein, St. Anthony Parish, Dayton, Ohio.

Knights of St. George, No. 42, Mr. Edward P. Flederbach, 283 Terrace Street, Honesdale, Pa.

Frank Horn, Branch 21, Mount Oliver, Pa.

Urban J. Imgound, Branch 240, New Baltimore, Pa.

Joseph Schmitt, Branch 92, Donora, Pa.

E. A. Holtz, St. Bernard's Branch 96, Hastings, Pa.

T. W. Powers, Branch 160. (No address.)

Robert C. Baier, Branch 275, Basress, Pa. P. O. Duboistown, Pa., R. F. D. No. 1.

Ernest Carney, Branch 209, New Alexandria, Pa.

H. J. Mulligan, Branch 90, Patton, Pa.

Supreme Council, Knights of St. George, National. Joseph H. Reiman, Pittsburgh, Pa.

J. P. Durdorow, Branch 168, Harrisburg, Pa.

John J. Fedigan, St. Mary Magdalene's Church, 343 12th Avenue, Homestead,

Pa.

Fred J. Winkler, St. Mary's of the Assumption Parish, West Thirtieth Street and Carroll Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio.

Joseph M. Tally, Central Council of Providence, Providence, R. I.

James Mullen, Woonsocket, R. I.

Charles J. Hardig, St. Augustine Conference, Cincinnati, Ohio, John L. McLaughlin, Pittsfield, Mass.

Joseph J. Masen, Division 11, 525 School Street Webster, Mass.
Edward P. Eagan, Division 1, 200 Peacock Street, Pottsville, Pa.

John P. Foley, Division 6, Springfield, Mass.

Ed. J. Traynor, Division 39, Tacony, Philadelphia, Pa., 3831 Hellerman Street. National organization: John J. O'Dea, 1344 Colwyn Street, Philadelphia, Pa. John J. Wolfe, G.K., K. of C. 2593, Park Place, Elm Grove, Wheeling, W. Va. Thomas J. Sheridan, G. K., Council 402, 217 North Fifth Street, Harrison, N. J. Fred D. Sulier, Council 386, 1605 Jefferson Avenue, Toledo, Ohio.

E. A. Cunningham, Council 592, East St. Louis, Ill.

Wilbur A. Hains, New Rochelle Assembly 339, Fourth degree, 68 Mount Joy Place, New Rochelle, N. Y.

M. J. Oberst, Lorain Assembly, Fourth degree, Lorain, Ohio.

Louis G. Imhoff, Tipton Council 1360, Tipton, Mo.

Francis B. McCudden, Gary Council 1795, Welch, W. Va.

Arthur W. O'Connor, Hartford Council 11, 28 Prospect Street, Hartford, Conn. R. W. Quisno, Port Clinton Council 1750, Port Clinton, Ohio.

D. F. Roach, Fourth degree, Terre Haute Assembly 541, 311 Tribune Building, Terre Haute, Ind.

Walter F. Quinn, Carbondale Council 329, Carbondale, Pa.

Ed. Bangal, Hoboken Council 159, 716 Hudson Street, Hoboken, N. J.

C. M. Dorgan, Catholic Union Council 4, Norwalk, Conn.

Wichita Council 691, Wichita, Kans.

J. E. Gibbons, Williamsport Council 366, Williamsport, Pa.

Carl P. Manderfeld, St. Patrick Council 1076, New Ulm, Minn.
Geo. H. Lohner, Independence, Kans.

Edw. L. Lynch, Chapman Council 1181, Chapman, Kans.
Watchung Council 552, Plainfield, N. J.

Council 1773, Perham, Minn.

John W. Rovane, De La Salle Council, Keokuk, Iowa.
C. W. Swanson, Alliance Council 558, Alliance, Ohio.
Robert A. Browne, Summit Council 783, Summit, N. J.
Clarence J. Cron, Celina Council 1800, Celina, Ohio.
Raymond Momboisse, jr., Petaluma Council, Petaluma, Calif.
Elwood Council, Elwood, Ind.

W. P. Meyer, St. Mary's Council 2228, Lynbrook, N. Y.
Arthur L. Sauvain, Bremerton Council, Bremerton, Wash.
Arthur J. Delomier, Council 1869, Marysville, Calif.
Edw. A. Murphy, St. Cloud Council, St. Cloud, Minn.
Frank J. McCabe, State deputy, Providence, R. I.

John M. Wehner, Wapakoneta, Council Wapakoneta, Ohio.
Kemmerer Council 2337, Kemmerer, Wyo.

F. J. Nenzel, Nevada Council, Reno, Nev.

John J. Boh, Crookston Council 1216, Crookston, Minn.
Harold J. Croke, Redwing Council, Redwing, Minn.

L. A. Collins, Santa Maria Council 1304, Port Arthur, Tex.
Cheverus Council 2344, South Portland, Me.

J. L. Neary, Black Hills Council 703, Lead, S. Dak.

J. R. Decker, Arkansas Valley Council 1161, La Junta, Colo.
Matt N. Sittenaur. St. Patrick's Council 818, Potter, Kans.
William T. McSorley, G.K., Oakland, Calif.

Edward Farrell, G.K., Belvidere, Ill.

D. L. Hickey, Bishop Carroll Council, Covington, Ky.