a EARL GREY: I am greatly relieved by hearing the explanation of the noble Earl. To a certain degree I understood him, but not exactly as he has now stated. What I understood him to say was, that he laid down what he considered a sound and proper principle of commercial legislation; that the application of that principle required great care and great deliberation, and that a measure founded upon it could not be produced in a hurry. I, therefore, did not expect (and I thought this perfectly reasonable) that the noble Earl would produce any such measure as this at an early day; but undoubtedly I did understand that the noble Earl did look to revise the commercial policy of this country upon the principle he has stated, as a means of revenue, and that in that general revision of our commercial policy, corn was not to be an excepted article. If I was wrong in so understanding the noble Earl, I beg his pardon; but I still think that, to the best of my understanding, the words delivered by the noble Earl could not be otherwise understood. Now, upon that, allow me to make this observation which is produced at home; and that, so far | telligent community of this country. And from its being favourable to the revenue, I decidedly stated that neither with regard the direct opposite is the case. You levy to that, nor with regard to dealing with a very large tax upon the consumer, not one the great and complicated question of our sixpence of which is paid into the revenues financial policy, had I any intention of of the State. The article of corn is one making any proposition on the part of Her on which a duty of the kind alluded to by Majesty's Government until that public the noble Earl formerly existed. The re- opinion should be decidedly and emphativenue derived from that duty was very in- cally expressed. considerable. But the noble Earl wished to reimpose the duty which previously existed. If he does so, I have no doubt he will not only raise the price of the 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 quarters of corn imported into this country, but of the much larger quantity which is produced in this country, the amount of which will not go into the Exchequer. Suppose that the noble Earl imposes a duty of 5s. per quarter on the 4,000,000 quarters imported, he will raise revenue of 1,000,000l. to the Exchequer. But the price of the four or five times that quantity grown in this country will also rise in exactly the same amount as the duty so imposed. The revenue derived by the Exchequer from corn will amount to 1,000,000l.; but the sum of 6,000,000l. will be paid by the consumers. This is the effect of the principle of a protective duty. By acting on the other principle, by repealing those duties which we always argued were a frightful tax upon the community, without bringing any money into the Exchequer, the effect has been, as I had the pleasure of stating on the very first night of the Session, that within the last few years duties have been repealed to the amount of twelve or thirteen millions, and that instead of the Customs revenues having diminished, they have reached a higher amount. Both theory and practice have proved the correctness of this principle. My Lords, I heard with great regret, with a consternation which I am altogether at a loss to describe, that the noble Earl intends to apply this, as I think, most unsound principle of commercial and finance to the food of the people. I have heard with consternation that a measure is to be proposed, with the authority of Government, for again imposing a tax of this kind. The EARL of DERBY said, I must beg to correct that statement. What I said was, that I saw no reason, in my own opinion, why corn should form an exception from the general principle of imposing duties upon foreign produce; but that that was a question which ought to be settled, and which could only be settled, by the deliberate judgment of the large and in The noble Earl says The EARL of DERBY: I have already corrected the misapprehensions upon the part of the noble Earl, and stated what I believe I did say, and what I know it was my intention to say. that he is much relieved by the explanation, and then he proceeds to repeat his version of that which he had understood me to say, but which I hope I have satisfied your Lordships the noble Earl misunderstood, and now upon that misunderstanding, so corrected, he is proceeding still to argue. EARL GREY: I appeal to your Lordships whether this interruption on the part of the noble Earl is strictly regular. I said I was greatly relieved. I then explained in what sense I had understood the words of the noble Earl, and then-though I was glad to find he had put a somewhat different construction upon them-I was then about to say that even now the distinction is not very clear; so that at first it must have been difficult to put any other construction upon the words of the noble as Earl than in the exercise of my judgment | him to undertake this great task, and the I fairly placed upon them. Even at this difficulties of the situation in which he was moment I am not quite convinced that I placed, the noble Earl should have been accurately apprehend the noble Earl: be- the only speaker. He lamented that his cause I do not know, from what the noble noble relative (Earl Grey), instead of Earl has stated, whether that revision taking a comprehensive view of that speech, upon what he conceives sound principles of had chosen to single out from it one partilegislation, is contemplated by Her Ma- cular topic, and that the most exciting. jesty's Government or not. Now, this is Their Lordships might well deem that that a question on which I do not press for any was a question upon which he felt no little immediate answer or decision; but, as one interest; for he believed that he was, in deeply interested in the landed interest, both Houses of Parliament, the very first a member of the community, every person to attack the ancient-no, not the class of which is deeply interested in that ancient-but what he might call the mequestion, I do implore the noble Earl to diæval system of commercial legislation. let no long time go by before he ex- But he thought that the speech of the noplains distinctly and clearly the views of ble Earl was not entitled to be animadvertHer Majesty's Government on this most ed upon in the way in which it had been important, exciting, and agitating ques- by his noble relative. He thought that a tion. After the events of the last ten better system than the present might be years, the question of a tax on the food of devised; but he doubted whether, even the country is not one to be kept long in after the noble Earl had collected the sensuspense. We are entitled to know-I do timents of the intelligent public on the not say to-night, I do not say in a fort- subject, it would be advisable to endeavour night, but I do say at a very early period to revise it. There were many wise laws the clear and decided intention of Her which wise men would not undertake to Majesty's Government. I implore the propose at all times; and he ventured to noble Earl, in justice to the great interests express a fear (although he thought that which are affected by leaving this question there was a great error in the view which in doubt, that he will not leave that doubt his noble relative took of the effect which to continue longer than is absolutely ne-a duty would produce upon the price of cessary; because, let your Lordships only consider the effect of that doubt, There is not a transaction between landlord and tenant, not a transaction in trade, commerce, or manufactures, which is not vitally affected by our being left in ignorance of what is to be the policy of the country on this all-important subject. In justice, therefore, to all these great interests which are affected, I do hope and trust that we shall not be long in learning more clearly, and in having some distinct explanation of the views of the Government. We are not to be told that this is a question to be cast loose, and decided by public opinion. That is not the way in which a Government can deal with a question of this sort. It is the duty of an Administration to have a policy on such subjects, and having that policy distinctly to avow it, and take the responsibility of submitting it to Parlia ment. EARL FITZWILLIAM said, that he was in hopes that no further debate would have taken place after the speech of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby); for he was of opinion that after he had, in so ample, frank, and honourable a manner explained to the House the position in which he stood, the consideration which had induced corn) whether, under the circumstances of the country, and after the people had for some time enjoyed the benefits derived from a virtual abrogation of duty, and tasted the sweets of cheap bread, they could be induced to submit to the smallest imposition of duty even for the purposes of revenue. He entirely dissented, however, from the position of his noble relative (Earl Grey), that whatever duty was imposed upon a quarter of foreign corn, raised the price of every quarter of corn grown at home by exactly the same amount. That fallacy had been promulgated by two different parties. One party promulgated it because it suited their interests when addressing the audiences assembled in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, and when they were bidding for the support of the manufacturers and the great masses of the people; while another set of Gentlemen, who had now taken possession of the Ministerial benches, also propagated it for their own purposes while they were bidding for the support of the farmers. The result was, that that fallacy, as he believed it to be, had made a very great impression on the community. He thought it would be difficult for even the most critical opponent to find much fault with the other parts of the noble Earl's speech. The noble Earl correctly, and with great clearness, stated the duty of this country to foreign nations; and he (Earl Fitzwilliam) trusted that in the administration of the Government he would adhere to the principles, and act upon the maxims, which he had declared in his speech. There was one subject on which he had heard the remarks of his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) with great satisfaction. He quite agreed with him that it would not do for the Government of this country to be every few years tampering with its constitutional rights. He heard, therefore, with great satisfaction that the noble Earl did not intend to proceed with a certain measure which had been introduced into the other House of Parliament, for the purpose of what was called a further reform in Parliament. He (Earl Fitzwilliam) thought these further reforms in Parliament most dangerous. He believed that if this question were to be agitated every ten or twenty years, the quiet and sensible part of the people would imbibe a great indifference to the popular franchise. He believed that if these changes were to be introduced, a very large section of the community would be of opinion that it would be much better to live under a mild and tranquil despotism. Well, he did not say all of the people; but a very considerable portion of them would prefer living under a mild and tranquil despotism, than to have these incessant discussions upon constitutional rights, and the constant change of those rights. He rejoiced to have the assurance of the noble Earl that this exciting question was not to be renewed by him. With respect to the Government generally, he trusted that the noble Earl who had been called on to form an Administration would be allowed to have proper time, and would not be pressed into a precipitate declaration of the precise principles upon which his Government was to be conducted, or the particular measures which they intended to propose to Parliament. He should also much regret to see any of that sort of opposition given to the Government which they might not in that place call factious opposition, but to which the public out of doors would be disposed to attach such a character. The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE said, he could not help rising to utter his protest against the censure which the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam) had just thought fit to cast upon his noble Friend lately at the head of the Colonial Department, for the very judicious and, in his mind, perfectly justifiable comments he had made on a most important part of the speech of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby). The noble Earl complained that his noble Friend had not taken a comprehensive view of that speech. Now he should very much object to such a course, because, if taken, it would lead to a very wide and extended discussion, which he thought on that occasion it would be best to avoid. At the same time, after the peculiar language and peculiar views held by the noble Earl opposite, he considered it perfectly right in his noble Friend near him to express the sentiments he did; and in those sentiments he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) cordially concurred. He would remind the noble Earl and the House that the question referred to had not been first brought before Parliament by his noble Friend or by the late Government, but that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) on the very first night of the Session thought it so necessary that the Government of the country should have an opinion on the subject, that he blamed the omission of such a matter in the Speech from the Throne. It was not mentioned in Her Majesty's Speech or in the Address in answer thereto; but the noble Earl thought it necessary to declare his opinion that it ought to have been noticed, and that with the price of corn which then ruled, the cultivation of wheat in this country must cease to an alarming and a dangerous degree. Well, if that was the opinion of the noble Earl on the first night of the Session, was it wonderful that when he came forward that night to make an exposition of the principles of his Government, the peculiar language he had used should be remarked upon by his noble Friend? Why, what was the language of the noble Earl? he understood it, the noble Earl declared that his opinions remained unchanged, and when he had got a majority in his favour he would act upon them; but that until he had obtained that majority he would not act upon them; in other words, so long as the majority was adverse to his views, the present laws should continue unaltered; but that as soon as the majority went round to him, the laws should be changed. Now, he said that such language as that, coming from the head of a Government, would involve every transaction affected by these laws in incalculable uncertainty and embarrassment. Passing from that point, he must As next say that, although he agreed with offer a few remarks. My Lords, long and the main part of the doctrine laid down by intimately connected as I had been with the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) with the eminent man (Sir Robert Peel) whose regard to the intercourse between the Go- untimely fate we all deplore, and whose vernment of this country and foreign na- loss, in proportion as the difficulties of the tions, there were yet some remarks that country increase, we shall have more and had fallen from him which, just at this par- more cause to lament, I think this is not ticular moment, he had not heard with great an unfitting occasion-the very first which satisfaction. Neither was he entirely sa- presents itself-for me to declare a detertisfied with the mode in which he had mined adherence to his policy, and the treated another subject on which the Go- resolution, as far as in my humble power vernment ought to be more frank and ex- lies, to carry out the great system of complicit, but which the noble Earl had touched mercial policy which he established. My extremely lightly-namely, the state of Lords, I have no right or title to speak what he had himself termed, on the first authoritatively for others; but I shall be night of the Session, "the Protestant much surprised and disappointed if all securities" of this country. On the open- those who supported him, with me, in ing night of the Session the noble Earl establishing that policy, shall not be found went out of his way to declare on that sub- to entertain the same sentiments as I now ject, that either the law as at present con- express. My noble Friend (the Earl of stituted was defective, or that the late Go- Derby) has described the principles upon vernment were deficient in energy in their which he considers the policy of the counadministration of it. The natural inference try on commercial matters should be guided; that might be drawn from these expressions and he has on other occasions as well as was, that the present Administration intend- to-night drawn a distinction between cused to alter the law, or to administer it in toms duties imposed for the purpose of revea different spirit from their predecessors. nue, and those imposed for the purpose of He hoped, however, that no such inference protection. The distinctions between these could justly be drawn, and he hoped so duties are, I confess, not very intelligible particularly for the success of the Adminis- to me. They appear to me shadowy and tration of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl unreal; but at all events with me, they of Eglinton) who, he understood, was to have no application, for I am equally pregovern Ireland; and he was greatly re-pared to oppose the imposition of a duty lieved to hear that as yet all the Government intended to do with regard to Protestant interests was to render aid and assistance to plans of Church extension. If he did not agree with other of the noble Earl's remarks, this was not a good time for entering into them; but he must, in conclusion, repeat that, looking at the importance of all the transactions of this country, it was highly essential that his noble Friend should have expressed the opinion entertained by himself and by many others on the same side of the House, that a subject of this gravity should not be left in abeyance in the indefinite manner now proposed, but that it would be better, as soon as they had given it due consideration, to come forward and frankly and fairly avow the opinions of the Government. The EARL of ABERDEEN said: My Lords, I wish to state very shortly the impression which the speech of my noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) has made upon my mind. Although the noble Earl below me (Earl Grey) has expressed very much the sentimen's which I entertain, yet there are one or two points on which I wish to upon corn, whether for the purposes of revenue or protection. My Lords, I think the time is past when any such tax can ever again be levied. I consider the system established by my late right hon. Friend to have been most eminently successful; and I am convinced that the persistance in that system will render its wisdom more plain, and its benefits more apparent. I therefore take this, the earliest opportunity of declaring my firm adherence to the policy of that legacy which he left behind him. I do not think it necessary to enter further into the other topics of the speech of my noble Friend. I have already adverted to that point on which I am totally at variance with him; and as far as I know there is no other subject with regard to which I may not hope to offer him my support. In all that portion of his speech which relates to the policy to be pursued towards Foreign Powers, I entirely acquiesce. My noble Friend and I have acted together for the last ten or twelve years, both in and out of office, in full concert and communication on those subjects, and I am not aware that there is any shade of difference between us in that was happy to hear it, that a dissolution in LORD BROUGHAM: I hope the noble Lord at the head of the Government will have no objection to agree to the proposition that I am about to make, namely, that we should not adjourn longer than is absolutely necessary, and that there is no- The EARL of DERBY replied: I have thing to prevent us from meeting next to thank the noble and learned Lord for week upon judicial business. Our sittings affording me an opportunity of explaining have already been interrupted — I am more clearly my meaning. With regard aware, almost unavoidably so; but I think to the question of law reform, I think I that, if possible, we ought to meet next did state, as I certainly intended to state, week for causes. There is another thing that, exclusive of those great party quesI wish to know from my noble Friend. tions in which it is notorious that the GoHe has stated, clearly enough, that all vernment are in a minority, and which subjects are to remain for a certain time they would, therefore, only bring forward in abeyance, with only one exception, that with the certainty of defeat-exclusive of of questions relating to social improve- those more exciting topics, we shall proment. Now I hope and trust he included pose to Parliament to deal with those great under the head social improvement,' measures generally called for by the counthat great and most important subject, try-legal reform and social improvement; the amendment of the law. I have no and I am sure that my noble and learned doubt that he meant so to include it; Friend the Lord Chancellor, when he has but I think he did not mention it by taken his seat in this House, will apply his name. With respect to the conversation vigorous powers of mind to the consideraon the subject of the corn laws, I wish tion of that subject, and the promotion of that it could have been avoided, and I do those objects which were recommended by not mean to enter upon it even for a the Chancery Commissioners in their Re- not that I differ at all from port. With regard to the subject of the my noble Friend near me upon that great adjournment of this House, I am about to question (Earl Grey); and of his alarm propose that the House should only adI for a moment partook, from what was journ, as usual, till Monday next; and on stated by the noble Earl. But I think that day it may be seen whether it is not I heard something more than my noble possible to proceed with the judicial busiFriend can have done, which at once quiet-ness. In the meantime, your Lordships ed my apprehensions; for I think the noble Earl stated that these were his individual opinions, but that whether the Government were prepared to act upon those opinions, or to introduce measures grounded upon them, must depend upon what is the general opinion of the country to which proposition I entirely accede, and would be the first myself to subscribe. How that general opinion is to be taken[A laugh]-at what time it is to be taken, I am not aware. I certainly do not think I have said anything to excite mirth, for I understood the noble Earl to say, and I moment will understand, that if the House sits, it will only sit for the transaction of judicial or of private business; and that no matter of more general interest shall be dealt with while the House of Commons finds it necessary to adjourn until the re-election of the Members of the Government who have seats there. LORD BROUGHAM: Doubtless the House, without a formal resolution, will come to the understanding which the noble Earl has stated, not to proceed with any thing but private business. House adjourned to Monday next. |