fications in detail have been introduced, | promoting the system to a greater extent and various alterations made in the minor than they have hitherto done. Of late I arrangements of the Board, and even in have not had much time to read the newssome matters which may be considered as papers; and I hope my right hon. and of primary importance. I have not of late learned Friend the Attorney General for entered minutely into the details of the Ireland, if he becomes acquainted with education given in these schools; but I what is taking place here now, will not understand that that which was in the first imagine that I treat him with any disreinstance rendered compulsory-namely, spect if I frankly avow that I have not the use of Scripture lessons in all the read that speech of his to which the noble schools-has since from various causes Marquess has alluded; but this I know, been left a good deal to the discretion of because I have had communication with the managers of the different schools, and him on this subject-I know his straightthat, consequently, in many of them where forward and candid disposition and charScripture lessons are not used, there is less acter too well not to be quite sure that he Scripture education given in those schools would not make any statement on my part, than was contemplated by the plan at the in which he was not entirely borne out by original foundation of the Board. I do the language I had held to him. I see on not mean to say, that, where these lessons the opposite side of the House the noble are not used, there is not now given to the Earl the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, great bulk of the Roman Catholic popula- and I think he can bear me witness that tion a far more enlightened and a far more some two years ago I expressed to him my scriptural education than they were re- opinion that the time would come when it ceiving, or were likely to receive, if this would be most expedient that a Parliasystem had not been adopted. But va- mentary Committee should be appointed rious modifications have taken place from for the purpose of examining into the time to time; and your Lordships are aware practical working of the system of nathat some time ago considerable objections tional education in Ireland, and that I were raised on religious grounds, on the thought such an investigation, calmly, depart of the Presbyterian body, who held liberately, and fairly conducted, would tend aloof from the system of education in those to remove much of the misapprehension schools with quite as much perseverance and misconception on both sides, and might and determination as, I am sorry to say, a lead to such modifications as would obtain great proportion-though not the whole for the system a more united support. I of the clergy of the United Church of Eng- stated at the same time also, that I was land and Ireland do at the present mo- strongly disposed to submit that question ment. Now, my Lords, the absence of to your Lordships' consideration, and to this co-operation I feel to be a great evil. move for a Committee to inquire into the I feel that it is a great misfortune that the working of this system. And there is national system of education was not from one point which it is exceedingly desirable the first taken up by the clergy of the Es- should be cleared up, and upon which the tablished Church; for sure I am that if it noble Marquess has laid considerable stress had been so taken up, they would by this namely, how far this system, as it at time have obtained throughout Ireland a present exists, is practically a system of great and important—and not an unworthy combined education. It is a great object -influence over the education of the people, now to bring up the youth of Ireland in and over the minds, not only of the Protes- constant and familiar intercourse with those tant but of the Roman Catholic population of different religious persuasions to themof that country. But whilst I regret that selves, and rather to teach them how much the Protestant clergy of the Church of Eng- of common truth there is in which they land have thus stood aloof, I hesitate not might all agree, than to inculcate upon to say that I consider it a matter of the their minds those peculiar points upon greatest importance that we should ascer- which they may happen to differ from one tain whether or not, without departing another. But how far the national system from the original system, it may be pos- is a system of combined education-how sible to introduce into that system, as has far it includes within the limits of its already been done with regard to the Pres-operation Protestants of the Established byterian Church, such modifications as may, perhaps, remove the objections of the clergy, and induce the clergy to co-operate in

Church, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics, and is yet in its details a system which in each particular school is an ex

clusive system, not of necessity by the rule, | conscientious scruples of those who lead but practically according to the results how far Presbyterian schools, acting on their own principles, and complying with the rules of the Board, are yet practically and exclusively confined to Presbyterians and how far, in the south and west of Ireland, where the great bulk of the population are Roman Catholics, the vast majority of the schools are essentially, and all but exclusively, Roman Catholic, under the management of Roman Catholic patrons and Roman Catholic schoolmasters-and if they are, the great majority of the pupils being Roman Catholics, I do not complain; on the contrary, I think it is quite right that these schools should be under the management of Roman Catholic schoolmasters. I complain of none of those things; but, when we want to look at the working of the system, and the possibility of effecting modifications, I think it is important that we should know, by the inquiries of a Committee, how far the system in all these respects deserves to be called that which it was intended to be, and which it is certainly desirable that it should be, a system practically of combined and united education. These questions are, I think, worthy of inquiry by a Committee, and for that purpose I am of opinion it is very desirable that a Committee should be appointed. I think also that, as a part of their labour, that Committee might fairly and properly enter upon an investigation of any possible modifications of the existing rules, which might remove any portion of the objections which are now raised against the system. And if the result of their inquiries should be, that we found that in the great majority of the schools that which was intended to be a combined system, is practically and in reality an exclusive system-if there be Presbyterian schools here, and Roman Catholic schools there; and if the rules of the Board are such as to render it impossible for a portion of the community to attend those schools, and, in fact, practically to exclude them, I hope it will not be regarded as a thing which would derogate from or diminish the influence of the existing system if we enter upon a calm inquiry how far, under the superintendence of the Board, assistance might not in a certain degree be given even to schools which do not strictly come within the letter of the law laid down by the Board. I do not shrink from the consequence to which the noble Marquess has adverted, that schools which, through the

the population, are now excluded from the advantage of coming under the direct superintendence and control of the Board, would then be admitted to the advantages which are undoubtedly to be derived from the assistance of the Board, without sacrificing their principles, I say, my Lords, I do not see that we should in the slightest respect be violating the principles upon which that Board was originally founded, if, adopting an example which was set us in this country in the first instance, we consented to afford some, perhaps a minor, degree of assistance to schools, be they Protestant or Roman Catholic, which may not come under the strict rules of the Board. And I do not dissent from the conclusion adverted to by the noble Marquess, that if we render assistance to an exclusively Protestant school, for instance, we cannot withhold it from an exclusively Roman Catholic school. In the years 1831 and 1832, when this system was first originated, there existed a different feeling from that which prevails now, which would have rendered any assistance on the part of Government to a school exclusively Roman Catholic a matter of absolute imposibility. I have reason to believe that that feeling is materially weakened in the present day. I believe that the scruples which were then entertained with regard to educating Roman Catholics, as Roman Catholics, have not now the same weight and power over the minds of the people that they had at that time. I believe that the affording Government assistance to a school composed exclusively of Roman Catholics would not now meet with the opposition and with the objections which it would have met with in 1831 and 1832. But I readily admit that if you introduce the principle of affording assistance to a school exclusively Protestant in Ireland, you cannot escape from the other alternative of affording assistance also, under the same rule, to a school exclusively Roman Catholic. Whether it may be possible to combine with the independence of these schools as to their internal management-be they Protestant or Roman Catholic-aid from the national funds, and superintendence by national inspectors, is a matter upon which at this moment I do not desire to pronounce any positive opinion. If you ascertain, on the report of a Committee, that, combined education being the rule, practically exclusive education is the system, then I think it would deserve attention whether you should

religious peace and harmony in the country | could not be too strongly urged, seeing the where he was called upon to exercise his end which was desired to be attained was beneficial influence. Much might depend the giving to the poorer classes an educaupon the choice of the person to act in his tion both for time and eternity. Their place, as to how far the same benefits Lordships might recollect that when this might be derived from the same system. subject was brought forward in 1832, he That, therefore, was an additional reason felt it his duty to oppose the introduction for not hastily announcing a disturbance of of the measure, on the ground that he a system which, up to the present moment, thought that no measure ought to be introhe held to be perfectly successful, but duced under a Protestant Government, which might be made more successful; and under a Protestant constitution, for and, at the same time, so far as he was the instruction of the people, that had not concerned, for not drawing from the high for its foundation the teaching of the Scripauthority of the noble Earl any indication tures among the children admitted to its of an intention to substitute, for general schools. He was told at the time that if and common, a separate and independent that course was to be pursued, it would ensystem of education. tirely exclude the Roman Catholic children from those schools; but he knew well that at that period Roman Catholic children, to a large amount, were attending schools conducted upon that system, and he had since learned that Roman Catholic children in large numbers were gladly and anxiously attending them and receiving therein a scriptural education. He could not agree with the noble Earl in the statement he had made as to the success of the national system. He (the Earl of Roden) admitted their books were good, and that some of their schools in the country were good; but he said the great majority of the schools were established on a system of giving an exclusively Roman Catholic education to the people. Would not the noble Marquess allow the large body of the Protestant Church in Ireland to have some conscience on this subject? It was his (the Earl of Roden's) privilege to be acquainted with many of the clergy of Ireland, and to meet them from time to time, and to hear their opinions on this subject, and he was certain their opposition to those schools was dictated by the most conscientious motives. He could not doubt that it would come out in evidence before the Committee to which the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) had referred, that among the Roman Catholic people of Ireland there was the greatest anxiety to be instructed, and to have their children instructed, in the Scriptures, and that they were only kept from that instruction by the tyranny of the priests. He (the Earl of Roden) himself had been a witness within the last few months of what the feelings of the people in the west of Ireland were on this subject. They evinced the greatest anxiety to be instructed in the Scriptures. He had seen a large population, to the amount of upwards of 10,000, brought out of the Church of Rome, and

The EARL of DESART regretted that the Protestant clergy in Ireland had acted with so great a want of judgment at the first establishment of the system. Their system then was a total withdrawal of themselves from connexion with it; the consequence of which was, that the administration had fallen into the hands of the opposite party. He spoke strongly of this systematic withdrawal, because, from his admiration of the national system, he put a school of his own under it. At first, both the Protestant and Roman Catholic clergymen visited it; but the Protestant clergyman by and by absented himself, and, after a time, the Protestant parents complained that they could not allow their children to attend, on account of the annoyances they were subjected to by the Roman Catholic children. He reminded their Lordships that they disposed of a sum of the public money upon principles which had the effect of excluding a great part of the people of the Church of England from participating in the advantages. He, on that account, did not wonder to find some of the clergy of that Church were of opinion that the people to whom they ministered were hardly used.

The EARL of RODEN said, he might, perhaps, stand alone in the opinion he felt it his duty to give in respect to the subject now under their Lordships' consideration; but he felt that he had a duty to perform, and, whether he stood alone in his opinion or not in the discharge of that duty, he would have the consciousness of doing that which he owed to his country, to himself, and, above all, to the great cause involved in this question. He agreed with the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) that the subject was one of paramount importance. Its importance, indeed,