Whom did you receive it from?-From a Mr. Huntley, I see. Who is he?-He lives, I believe, in Dukestreet, Grosvenor-square. As you did not sell it, perhaps you gave it away?-It is likely I did. Seeing your own hand-writing upon it, and recollecting you had some conversation with Mr. White upon the second part of the Rights of Man, have you the least doubt, upon your oath, that you gave Mr. White that book?I cannot say; I rather think I might. Mr. Garrow-Rather think you might!-I cannot be positive; I do not recollect the circumstance. What is in your hand-writing?" Bought of Mr. Johnson, February the 18th, 1792, by Mr. Huntley." This is a memorandum of your own?-Yes. Upon what occasion did you make that memorandum?-Because I was desirous to know whether Mr. Johnson had sold any. That desire could not have led you to make that memorandum ?-It was to be certain that Mr. Johnson had sold it. Upon what occasion did you make that memorandum?--Because I understood my name was put to it, and therefore I did not expect that Mr. Johnson would sell them. You thought Mr. Johnson would not sell the book with your name to it ?—Yes. Was your name put to it without your consent?-It was not. What do you mean by Johnson not selling the book with your name to it ?-He had my consent to put my name to them, but I thought he would not sell them with my name to them, as his own was not.. Your consent was given, then, to put your name to that?—Yes. You say you did not publish that bookyou do not call giving a book away publishing a book-publishing is selling?-Yes, though I published a great number of the books, I did not publish this, because I did not sell it. Did you publish any of which this is a copy? -I did. Have you any doubt that you published some of which this is one copy?-Not at all. Whom did you publish them for?-For Mr. Paine. Had you communications with Mr. Paine upon the subject of the publication?-Very little; I had some conversation with him. Was there any profit?-Yes. Was there any account to be rendered?Yes. Had you any account, upon the subject of that publication, with Mr. Paine, or with Mr. Tooke?-With Mr. Paine. Do you know Mr. Horne Tooke ?—Yes. Did you ever see him upon the subject of the publication of that second part of the Rights of Man?--I do not recollect upon the second part. Endeavour to recollect yourself? - . When I suppose the prosecution you mean?Yes; for publishing the second part of the Rights of Man-I went, according to orders, to Mr. Tooke. Did you communicate to him that you came in consequence of orders?—Yes, in consequence of a letter which I received from Mr. Paine. Did that letter direct you to go to Mr. Tooke?-I do not recollect that it did. You told me you went, in consequence of an order, to Mr. Tooke?-In consequence of an order from Mr. Paine I went to Mr. Tooke's, expecting to meet Mr. Paine there. Did you meet Mr. Paine there?—I did. Was Mr. Tooke there too?-He was. Recollect what passed when Mr. Paine and Mr. Tooke were present?-I cannot say;" Mr. Tooke and I had a little dispute about my being timid, in consequence of the action. Having a sort of dispute enables one to recollect the conversation more than when one has no dispute-What was the conversation?-Mr. Tooke seemed angry that I was timid and doubtful of leaving the action to the care of Mr. Bonney. Had it been before that settled that Mr. Bonney should defend you upon that prosesecution?--I saw Mr. Bonney at that time at Mr. Tooke's. Who else was present?-Mr. King, that is an attorney I took with me; I was rather timid, and was not satisfied with Mr. Paine's proceedings; I was rather fearful; I therefore took the gentleman recommended to me, Mr. King, an attorney, as a witness. I really cannot recollect what passed. Was any body else there?-Only Mr. Tooke and Mr. Bonney. You were fearful, you say, of trusting Mr. Bonney with your defence?-I was rather fearful. Can you recollect what Mr. Tooke said to you upon that subject?-He said Mr. Paine had employed Mr. Bonney for the defence; I might go home about my business, and rest satisfied that Mr. Bonney would take care of the business. Can you say whether that book which you now hold in your hand is one of that edition, about which you had this conversation?-İ cannot say it is. Perhaps I am in an error as to the edition? -This is not the same edition. Is it a copy of the same book?—Yes. Mr. Erskine.-How do you know that this is one of the copies?-Because there is my own hand-writing on this book. Mr. Erskine. Is it printed by you?—I did not print it; I published it. How do you know that is one? Because there is my own writing upon it. How did you know that it was a copy when you put your writing on it, you only guessed it then, I suppose, as you do now?—Yes. Mr. Garrow. Was this one of the copies the action was commencing against me, I of that work which you had for publication? went to Mr. Tooke. Mr. Garrow. Look at this [showing the witness another copy] to use your own sense of the word publish, did you publish that?—I cannot say to this very book, I published a number of a book like this. [The preface was read.] [Vide Hardy's Trial, antè, Vol. 24, page 503.] [The following entries were read from the books of the Society for Constitutional Information:] "At a Meeting at the Crown and Anchor tavern, Strand, Friday, 29th of June, 1792, PRESENT, "Dr. Edwards in the chair, "Lord Sempill, Mr. J. H. Tooke, Mr. Frost, Mr. Choppin, Mr. W. Sharpe, Mr. Bonney, Mr. Hull, Mr. Bush, Mr. Sturch, Mr. Sutton, Mr. Williams, Mr. Chatfield, Rev. Mr. Joyce, Mr. G. Williams, Captain T. Harwood, Mr. Sinclair, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. A. Bush, Mr. Balmanno, Mr. Watts, Dr. Kentish, "Mr. Sturch reported from the committee appointed to consider of the best means of Had those which you and Johnson sold-circulating Mr. Paine's Letter to Mr. Secrepublished by you-your name upon Had the work the general appearance which this has?-Yes. them Was it printed in that manner?-Yes. On that letter, of that size, and that sort of paper?-I cannot say so particularly, because the paper is rather mixed. You are a considerable bookseller, I suppose?--I sell a number of books. Do you know of any other of Mr. Paine's Rights of Man, the Second Part, that has passed through your hands as a bookseller, of that size and appearance, except those published by you?-I have seen another edition. The cheap edition?-No; another octavo edition-" printed for D. Jordan, Piccadilly." Have you seen any with J. S. Jordan, of that size, that were not published by you?-No; I have seen a small edition. Mr. Erskine.-You know no more of that than you do of the other book? Mr. Garrow. We propose to read them upon this evidence. Mr. Erskine.-It is not our object at all to argue it. Lord Chief Justice Eyre.-It was read substantially upon the same evidence before. Mr. Erskine.-All I say is, I do not think myself the least interested about it; I submit that it is not evidence. Lord Chief Justice Eyre.-The question was mooted before, and the Court was of opinion, in respect of a book published through the town, that this was a reasonable evidence to go to the Jury, that it was the same book. [Several Extracts from the Rights of Man, Part the Second, were read.] [Vide Hardy's Trial, antè, Vol. 24, page 500.] Mr. Tooke. I believe I have likewise a right to desire an extract to be read out of that book-it will be a little preposterous, but not the less suitable to this sort of evidence-I beg that the preface may be read. tary Dundas, that they were of opinion the letter should be sent as follows: 250 Rev. Mr. Morris, Great Yarmouth. "1200 Mr. Thomas Walker, Manchester. 200 Mr. Fox, Derby. 100 Mr. Logsden, Cheshunt, Herts. Mr. Nash, Royston. "Sent by Mr. Rutt, Thames-street 200 London Corresponding Society; sent to Mr. Hawes. 50 Aldgate Society; sent to the Mitre. 50 Constitutional Whigs; sent to Mr Conner. 6 Mr. Lambton; sent to him. 6 Mr. Whitbread; sent to him. 200 Friends of the People, Borough; sent to Mr Favell. 66 100 Mr. Bush; sent to him. (6 300 Mr. Pearson, and Mr. Balmanno sent to them. 400 Lord Sempill, Glasgow. 100 Mr. Thomas Francis, Birmingham. 100 Rev. Mr. Martin. 100 Rev. Mr. Joyce; lord Stanhope's. 100 Mr. Frost, Spring Gardens. 100 Rev. Mr. Potticary, Isle of Wight. "6 100 Rev. Mr. Toulmin, Taunton. 100 Rev. Mr. Corrie, Broomsgrove. 100 Rev. Mr. Wyche, Maidstone. 200 Mr. Rutt, Thames-street. 200 Rev. Mr. Lloyd, Sussex. 100 Rev. Mr. Mills, Portsmouth. tituled RIGHTS OF MAN, I think it unnecessary to offer any other reason for addressing this letter to you. "I begin, then, at once, by declaring, that I do not believe there are to be found in the writings of any author, ancient or modern, on "Sent to Mr Sturch, and by him sent the subject of government, a spirit of greater to the different persons. 700 Mr. Johnson, St. Paul's Church-yard, for different parts of the country. "8962 "Ordered, That the letter be circulated agreeable to the report of the committee." Crown and Anchor tavern, Strand, Friday, "At a Meeting of the Society held at the 6th July, 1792, "PRESENT, "Mr. Sturch in the chair, benignity, and a stronger inculcation of moral come from a heart that knows not how to "I will farther say, that when that moment arrives in which the best consolation that shall be left will be that of looking back on some past actions, more virtuous, more "Mr. Chatfield, Mr. J. Martin, lord Sempill, meritorious than the rest, I shall then with Mr. Frost, Mr. Simmonds, Rev. Mr. Joyce, happiness remember among other things, I Mr. Bonney, Mr. Brookbank, Colonel have written the RIGHTS OF MAN.-As to Keating, Mr. M. Pearson, Mr. W. Sharpe, what proclamations, or prosecutions, or placeMr. Bush, Mr. Balinanno, Mr. Jennings, men, or place expectants-those who possess, Mr. Hull, Mr. J. II. Tooke, Captain Tooke or those who are gaping for office, may say of Harwood, Mr. Bakewell, Mr. Hind, Mr. | them, it will not alter their character, either G. Williams, Mr. Lockhart, Mr. J. Wil- with the world or with me. liams, Mr. Sutton, Mr. Watts, Mr. Walsh, Mr. Campbell, Mr. J. Adams, Mr. Barlow, Dr. Kentish, "Read a letter from the London Corresponding Society, returning thanks for the communication of this Society, and forwarding the following names as proper persons to be elected associated members of this society: Mr. Hardy, Mr. Margarot, Mr. Richter, Mr. Littlejohn, Mr. Grant, and Mr. Gow." Mr. Maclean. I found this letter among Mr. Adams's papers. [A Letter signed Thomas Hardy, secretary, addressed to Mr. D. Adams, dated July 6, 1792, read.] [Vide Hardy's Trial, antè, Vol. 24, page 189.] Mr. Lauzun.-This is one of the books I found at Mr. Hardy's house. Mr. Law. It is one of the 200 which were transmitted by the Constitutional Society to Hardy. [It was read.] "Mr. Paine's Letter to Mr. Secretary Dundas. See this Debate in the New Parl. Hist. "Having, sir, made this declaration, I shall proceed to remark, not particularly upon your own speech on that occasion, but on any other rise; and I shall begin with that of Mr. speech to which your motion on that day gave ADAM. "This Gentleman accuses me of not having done the very thing that I have done, and have accused me. which (he says) if I had done, he should not 'Mr. Adam in his speech (see the Morning Chronicle of May 26) says, That he had well 'considered the subject of Constitutional Pub(but the contrary) that books of science upon lications, and was by no means ready to say government, though recommending a doctrine or system different from the form of our con'stitution (meaning that of England) were fit 'objects of prosecution; that if he did, he must condemn (which he meant not to do) HARRINGTON for his Oceana, sirTHOMAS MORE Perfect Commonwealth. But (continued Mr. 'for his Eutopia, and IIUME for his Idea of a ADAM) the publication of Mr. PAINE was very 'different, for it reviled what was most sacred ' in the constitution, destroyed every principle of subordination, and established nothing in 'their room'* "I readily perceive that Mr. ADAM had not read the Second Part of Rights of Man, and I am put under the necessity, either of submitting to an erroneous charge, or of justifying myself against it; and I shall certainly prefer the latter.-If then I shall prove to Mr. ADAM that, in my reasoning upon systems of go*New Parl. Hist. Vol. 29, p. 1497. ተ vernment in the second part of Rights of Man, I have shown, as clearly, I think, as words can convey ideas, a certain system of government; and that not existing in theory only, but already in full and established practice, and systematically and practically free from all the vices and defects of the English government, and capable of producing more happiness to the people, and that also with an eightieth part of the taxes, which the present system of English government consumes; I hope he will do me the justice when he next goes to the House to get up and confess, he had been mistaken in saying, that I had established nothing, and that I had destroyed every principle of subordination. Having thus opened the case, I now come to the point. "In the Second Part of RIGHTS OF MAN, I have distinguished government into two classes or systems; the one the hereditary system; the other the representative system. "In the First Part of Rights of Man, I have endeavoured to show, and I challenge any man to refute it, that there does not exist a right to establish hereditary government; or, in other words, hereditary governors; because hereditary government always means a government yet to come, and the case always is, that the people who are to live afterwards, have always the same right to choose a government for themselves, as the people had who lived before them. "In the Second Part of Rights of Man, I have not repeated those arguments, because they are irrefutable; but have confined myself to show the defects of what is called hereditary government, or hereditary succession; that it must, from the nature of it, throw government into the hands of men totally unworthy of it from want of principle, or unfitted for it from want of capacity- JAMES the second is recorded as an instance of the first of these cases; and instances are to be found almost all over Europe to prove the truth of the latter. "To show the absurdity of the hereditary system still more strongly, I will now put the following case: take any fifty men promiscuously, and it will be very extraordinary, if out of that number, one man should be found, whose principles and talents taken together, (for some might have principles, and others have talents) would render him a person truly fitted to fill any very extraordinary office of national trust. If then such a fitness of character could not be expected to be found in more than one person out of fifty, it would happen but once in a thousand years to the eldest son of any one family, admitting each on an average, to hold the office twenty years. Mr. ADAM talks of something in the constitution which he calls most sacred: but I hope he does not mean hereditary succession, a thing which appears to me a violation of every order of nature and of common sense. "When I look into history and see the multitude of men, otherwise virtuous, who have died and their families been ruined, in defence of knaves and fools, and which they would not have done had they reasoned at all upon the system; I do not know a greater good that an individual can render to mankind than to endeavour to break the chains of political superstition. Those chains are now dissolving fast, and proclamations and prosecutions will serve but to hasten that dissolution. "Having thus spoken of the hereditary system as a bad system, and subject to every possible defect, I now come to the representative system; and this Mr. ADAM will find stated in the Second Part of Rights of Man, not only as the best, but as the only Theory of government under which the liberties of a people can be permanently secure. "But it is needless now to talk of mere theory, since there is already a government in full practice; established upon that theory, or in other words, upon the Rights of Man, and has been so for almost twenty years. Mr. PITT, in a speech of his some short time since, said, 'That there never did, and never could exist, a government established upon those 'rights, and that if it began at noon, it would 'end at night.' Mr. PITT is not yet arrived at the degree of a school boy in this species of knowledge. His practice has been confined to the means of extorting revenue, and his boast has been-how much? Whereas the boast of the system of government that I am speaking of, is not how much, but how little. "The system of government purely representative, unmixed with any thing of hereditary nonsense, began in America. I will now compare the effects of that system of government with the system of government in England, both during, and since the close of the war. "So powerful is the representative system; first, by combining and consolidating all the parts of a country together, however great the extent; and secondly, by admitting of none but men properly qualified into the govern ment, or dismissing them if they prove to be otherwise, that America was enabled thereby totally to defeat and overthrow all the schemes and projects of the hereditary government of England against her. As the establishment of the revolution and independence of America is a proof of this fact, it is needless to enlarge upon it. "I now come to the comparative effect of the two systems since the close of the war, and I request Mr. ADAM to attend to it. "America had internally sustained the ravage of upwards of seven years of war, which England had not. England sustained only the expense of the war, whereas America sustained not only the expense but the destruction of property committed by both armies. Not a house was built during that period, and many thousands were destroyed. The farms and plantations along the coast of the country, for more than a thousand miles, were laid waste. Her commerce was annihilated. Her ships were either taken or had rotted within her own harbours. The credit of her funds had fallen upwards of ninety per cent. that is, an original hundred pounds would not sell for ten pounds. In fine, she was apparently put back an hundred years when the war closed; which was not the case with England. lars (11. 7s.) per day, their secre- Treasury Department. "Secretary, assistant, comptroller, "Department of State, including "Secretary, clerks, &c. &c. "Department of War. "But such was the event, that the same representative system of government, though since better organized, which enabled her to conquer, enabled her also to recover; and she now presents a more flourishing condition, and a more happy and harmonized society under that system of government, than any country in the world can boast under any other. Her towns are rebuilt, much better than before; her commerce is spread over the world, and her funds have risen from less than ten pounds the hundred to upwards of one hundred and twenty. Mr. PITT and his colleagues, talk of the things that have hap-"The whole board, clerks, &c. pened in his boyish administration without knowing what greater things have happened elsewhere, and under other systems of go vernment. "I next come to state the expense of the two systems, as they now stand in each of the countries; but it may first be proper to observe, that government in America is what it ought to be, a matter of honour and trust, and not made a trade of for the purpose of lucre. "The whole amount of the nett taxes in England (exclusive of the expense of collec. tion, of drawbacks, of seizures and condemnations, of fines and penalties, of fees of office, of litigations and informers, which are some of the blessed means of enforcing them) is, seventeen millions. Of this sum, about nine millions go for the payment of the interest of the national debt, and the remainder, being about eight millions, is for the current annual expenses. Thus much for one side of the case. I now come to the other. "The expense of all the several departments of the general representative government of the United States of America, extending over a space of country nearly ten times larger than England, is two hundred and ninety-four thousand, five hundred and fifty-eight dollars, which, at 4s. 6d. per dollar, is 66,275/. 11s. sterling, and is thus apportioned: "Expense of the Executive Department. "The office of the presidency, at "Vice-president which the president receives no- £. S. thing for himself 5,625 0 1,125 O 900 0 3,937 10 "Chief-justice "Five associated justices "Legislative Department. "Secretary, clerks, paymasters, £. S. 25,515 0 12,825 0 1,406 5 1,462 10 "On account of the incursions of the Indians on the back settlements, Congress is at this time obliged to keep six thousand militia in pay, in addition to a regiment of foot, and a battalion of artillery, which it always keeps; and this increases the expense of the war department to 390,000 dollars, which is 87,7951. sterling, but when peace shall be concluded with the Indians, the greatest part of the expense will cease, and the total amount of the expense of government, including that of the army, will not amount to one hundred thousand pounds sterling, which, as has been al ready stated, is but an eightieth part of the expenses of the English government. "I request Mr. Adam and Mr. Dundas, and all those who are talking of constitutions, and blessings, and kings, and lords, and the Lord knows what, to look at this statement. Here is a form and system of government, that is better organized and better administered than any government in the world, and that for less than one hundred thousand pounds per annum, and yet every member of Congress receives, as a compensation for his time and attendance on public business, one pound seven shillings per day, which is at the rate of nearly five hundred pounds a year. "This is a government that has nothing to fear. It needs no proclamation to deter people from writing and reading. It needs no political superstition to support it. It was by encouraging discussion, and rendering the 6,873 15 press free upon all subjects of government that the principles of government became understood in America, and the people are now enjoying the present blessings under it. You |
