Prot. No, no more than the words following, huic successit Joanne mulier, &c.' which are set just over-against these figures 854, do argue, that she began her Popedom the next year after; or that Leo the Fourth began his popedom in the year 852, because, right overagainst that number, his entrance upon Sergius's death is mentioned. Is not your next argument better?

Pap. The people of Rome, about that time, were evil affected towards the Pope; and so was the greater part of all Italy: For that Charles had subdued them, and given them to the Pope. Now, if such an accident as this had fallen out, it might have given them just cause to have fallen from the Pope again: For they might have pretended, that they would not be subject to a womanish and a whorish government. But we read of no such thing. Ergo.

Prot. Charles rescued Italy out of the hands of the Lombards, with the great good liking both of the Romans, and the rest of Italy. But he never turned them over to live under the Pope's government. All his life he kept them in obedience to himself, and by will bequeathed the whole country to his youngest son Pipin, as 2 Baronius sheweth out of the French historics. Ergo, this argument is naught: Let me have a new one.

Pap. The Popes, about the time of this your supposed pope Joan, did take up roundly both kings and emperors for their adulteries. Which is a plain argument, there was no Pope Joan in that see, guilty of any such crime.

Prot. What kings and emperors were these, whom the Popes took up so roundly for their adulteries?

Pap. Lodovicus, the Emperor, was one: For Gregory the Fifth turned him into a monastery for his adultery with one Judith, that there he might, a-part, do penance for his sin.

4

Prot. Gregory the Fifth lived almost one-hundred and fifty years after Pope Joan; and besides, there was no emperor called Ludovick in his time. Perhaps Florimondus would have said Gregory the Fourth, for he lived not long before Pope Joan's time, and in his days there was one Ludowick an emperor.

Pap. Indeed, it may be so, for the numeral figure might soon be mistaken. For Gregory the Fourth, a man may easily set down Gregory the Fifth: And what say you to it?

Prot. I say, Florimondus is a palterer. For Ludowick, wholived in Gregory the Fourth's time, was never noted for an adulterer, with any Judith, nor with any woman else. Judith, his wife, was suspected of that sin with others, and thereupon was veiled, and thrust into a monastery by some of the princes of the empire. And Ludowick himself, upon other pretences, was, for a time, deprived of the empire. But Gregory the Fourth had no hand, either in her veiling, or in his deprivation, as you may see by Baronius. Besides,

1 Florim. cap. 14. Num. 6. cap. 27. num. 2.,

perpetrati reum

ix ad aan. 833 & 834.

5

3 Flor.

2 Annal. Tom. ix, ad ann. 806. num. 19. 4 Greg. V. Ludovicum imperatorem adulterii cum Juditha quadam -cujusdam cœnobii claustris addixit. Florim, ibid. 5 Annal. Tom.

this fell out before Pope Joan's time; and, therefore, doth not hinder, but that there was such a Joan. Methinks you should be drawn dry, you talk so idly.

Pap. If there had been such a Pope Joan, some historian would have writ either good or bad of her. But we read nothing of her in any history.

Prot. Do we read nothing of her in any history? Whence have we this of her aspiring to the Popedom, and of her lewd behaviour in the time of her Popedom? Have I not proved it unto you out of the histories?

2

Pap. Yea, but my meaning is, that we read nothing in any history of her reforming the church; of her determining of causes and questions, usually proposed by bishops to them that are popes, of any intercourse or affairs, that she had with king or emperor.

Prot. No more do we read in any historian, of any such act done by Anastasius the Third, who sat as pope two years, and upward. Anastasius the Third, as Platina witnesseth, did nothing worthy of remembrance. We read nothing of any great acts done by Leo the Seventh. He sat three years and six months; yet he did as little as Anastasius, for any thing we read; he neither reformed the church, nor resolved any bishop his doubts, nor intermeddled with any princes.

5

Pap. Oh, but that age, wherein you feign this Joan lived, was an age wherein fell out great variety of matter, both in the east and in the west. In it many princes and emperors of great worth reigned. In it many men of great learning lived: And therefore, if there had been any such monster then, we could not but have heard of it on all sides.

Prot. So we have, as before I proved. But what great variety of matter fell there out in that age more than ordinary?

Pap. In that age, there was old holding and drawing between the eastern and western churches about images. Many councils were kept by both sides, and many evil words passed on all hands.

Prot. Go, go, I am ashamed of you, and of Florimondus your master. All stories testify, that the difference between the eastern and western churches, about images, began in the former ages; and that, though they continued some few years after the year 800, yet there was no talk of that matter for divers years before Pope Joan's days: Yet I am willing to hear you speak on. Wherefore tell me what sort

of learned men that age brought out?

Pap. Great store, but it were too long to reckon them,

Prot. It may be so: Yet you must know that they went for learned men in that age, who were but bare grammarians. And therefore, were they never so many, Pope Joan's acts might pass

5 Flor. Loco suprà citato.

dignum gestum est. Plat in Vita Anastasii III.

Plat in vita Leonis V1I.

3 Ab Anastasio nil memoria

4 Leo VII nil dignum memoria gessit. 6 Flor. ibid.

7 Qui sciret tantùm grammaticam isto seculo rudi, doctissimus habebatur. Baronius Annal. Tom. ix. ad ann. 802. num. 12.

1

Pap. Yea, but I would gladly know of you, what dukes, what princes, what kings, what emperors, this Joan inaugurated and crowned: What ambasssadors she entertained, what honours she bestowed upon any persons.

Prot. Indeed, you pose me now; especially in that which concerns the inaugurating and crowning of dukes, and princes, and kings, and emperors. For I remember none inaugurated or crowned by

her.

Pap. I thought so. And therefore you do well to confess it. I trust at length you will also confess that there was no Pope Joan.

Prot. Why, I pray you? did every Pope inaugurate and crown either dukes, or princes, or kings, or emperors?

Pap. Nay, I say not so, But in that age the emperors themselves had such a reverend opinion of the Roman Popes, that they would not take upon them to reign, except they gave them their consent, and crowned them.

Prot. How prove you that?

2

Pap. By this, that Adrian the First baptized the two sons of Charles the Great, and after that anointed them kings.

3

Prot. This proves not your purpose; for this fell out in the year 781, as Baronius notes, and not in that age wherein Pope Joan lived. But do you think that every Pope in that age inaugurated some dukes, or princes, or kings, or emperors? I would gladly know of you, what duke, or prince, or king, or emperor, was inaugurated, or crowned by Pope Eugenius the Second, who sat in the year 824; or by Pope Valentinus, who sat in the year 827; or by Pope Gregory the Fourth, who succeeded Valentinus; or by Pope Sergius the Second, who sat in the year 844; or by Pope Leo the Fourth, who sat in the year 847. I am sure, never a one of these crowned any emperor. And I remember not, that any one of these anointed any duke, or king, save Leo the Fourth, who anointed Alfred, the youngest son of Ethelwulfus, King of England. Which furthered him nothing to the attaining of the kingdom; for, till the death of his three elder brethren, for all the Pope's anointing him, he lived like a subject, he lived not like a king. Wherefore, to put you in mind of the main point, though Pope Joan inaugurated, or crowned, no such persons as you speak of, yet you cannot conclude thereupon: Ergo, there was no Pope Joan,

Pap. But if she bestowed no honours upon any persons; if she made no bishops; if she gave no bishopricks, it is more than probable there was never any such.

Prot. Oh, but we read, that contulit sacros ordines, promovit episcopos, ministravit sacramenta, cæteraque Romanorum Pontificum exercuit munera:' She gave orders; she made bishops; she administered the sacraments, and she performed all other offices belonging unto the papacy.

Pap. Where read you that? I warrant you, you had it out of Bale; of whom I wish you to see, at your leisure, what Florimondus's censure is.

1 Flor. cap. cit. num. 6. Florim. loco citato.

2 Flor. ibid.

3 Annal. tom. ix. ad ann num. £. 5 Florim.cap. 3. num. 1 & 2.

Prot. John Bale for aught I know, is a far honester man than Florimondus. And, to tell you truth, if Florimondus rail upon him, I shall have the better opinion of him. For as 'Tertullian persuaded himself, that whosoever knew Nero, would easily believe Christianity were good, because it was disliked by Nero: So I persuade myself, that whosoever knows Florimondus, he will the rather be well persuaded of John Bale, because he is reviled by Florimondus. But yet I would have you know, I read not this in Bale only, but in Cornelius Agrippa; a man much commended by Leo X. and in a book of his solemnly privileged by Charles V.

Pap. Well, sir, since these reasons prevail not with you, I will come a step or two nearer to you. And first, to prove your story a fabulous fiction, I argue thus: If the report of Pope Joan be not a fiction, then Nicholas, the first pope of that name, who at the time of her election was a cardinal, gave her a voice, and so consented to her election. But it is not credible that Nicholas gave her a voice, and consented to her election, ergo.

Prot. First, I deny that Nicholas was a cardinal at the time of Pope Joan's election. For he was made subdeacon by Sergius II. and deacon by Leo IV. In which order he continued till the death of Benedict III. who sat after Joan. Secondly, I deny we are bound to believe that he gave Pope Joan his voice, though we should grant he was a cardinal. For it was never required, that all the cardinals should give consent to any pope's election. But principally I deny your minor proposition, viz. that it is not credible Nicholas gave her his voice, and consented to her election. And how can you prove it?

Pap. If Nicholas had given her a voice, and consented to her election, then could he not honestly have reproved Photius patriarch of Constantinople, for that he suffered himself of a meer lay-man to be made a patriarch. 10 Neither could he justly have reproved Michael the Emperor, for that he gave his consent to Photius's ordination and election. But, no doubt, he reproved them both honestly and justly. Ergo, he never gave Pope Joan his voice, he never consented to her election.

Prot. Why might not he, without note of dishonesty, reprove Photius and the Emperor for their dealing, though he himself had a hand in Pope Joan's election?

Pap. Because he should have been guilty of the same fault, if not of a greater; for a woman, you know, is not capable of holy orders.

Prot. Oh is that it? As though there were not a main difference between Nicholas's fact, to suppose he did it, and the fact of Photius

1 Qui scit illum, intelligere potest, non nisi grande aliquod bonum à Nerone damnatum, Tertull. Apolegot. cap. 5. Euseb. Hist. Eccles. lib. ii. cap. 24. 2 De Vanitate Scientiarum, cap. 62. de Sectis Monasticis.

3 Lib. i. Epistol. Epist. 38. te wagnopere commendamus. &c. saith Leo the Tenth. 4 Lib. de vanitate Scientiarum, is mentioned in the emperor's privilege. 5 Si ea fabula vera fuisset, ut Romæ hoc tempore sederit fœmina, cui in elec tione ipse Nicolaus tunc Cardinalis suffragium oportuerit contulisse, qua fronte Photium redar guere potuisset (quod sæpissime facit) eo nomine quòd cum esset laicus ordinari se episcopum passus esset, &c. Baron. Annal. tom. x. ad. ann. 853. num. 70. 6 Anastas. Biblioth. in vita Nicolai I. 9 Baron. loco supra citato. 10 Imperatorem ipsum acerrima reprehensione perstringit, quod id agere præsumpsisset, Baron. ibid.

7 Ibid.

8 Ibid.

1

and the Emperor. Photius and the Emperor did that wittingly and willingly, which Nicholas reproves in them. Nicholas chose a woman pope unwittingly. It was with Nicholas, in all likelihood, at the election of Pope Joan, as it was with the two hundred of Jerusalem, who were called by Absalom to Hebron; of whom the scriptures witness, that they went in their simplicity, knowing nothing. Now ignorance, invincible ignorance, such as this was, excuseth, though not from all fault, yet from so great fault. Wherefore you must come nearer me yet, if you mean to drive me from my opinion.

3

Pap. Have at you then, and that with a 2 golden argument, such as can never be answered, and this is it: About one hundred and seventy years after this devised clection of Pope Joan, to wit, upon the year of Christ 1020, the church and patriarch of Constantinople being in some contention with Rome, Pope Leo IX. wrote a long letter to Michael the patriarch of Constantinople, reprehending certain abuses of that church, and, among others, that they were said to have promoted eunuchs to priesthood, and thereby also a greater inconvenience fallen out, which was, that a woman was crept to be patriarch. Now, no doubt, Leo would never have durst to write thus, if the patriarch might have returned the matter back upon him again, and said: This was but a slanderous report, falsly raised against the church of Constantinople, but that a woman indeed had been promoted in the Roman church.

Prot. Is this your golden and unanswerable argument? Truly, I am sorry for you, that you have no more skill in an argument; for you presume in this, that Leo would never object that against Constantinople, whereof Rome itself might be convinced; and make that the ground of your conclusion. Now that is a slabby ground, as may appear by this, that it is ordinary with you papists to object that against others, whereof yourselves stand most guilty. It is ordinary with you papists to call your enemies whores first. Do not you complain with open mouths of us ministers, for want of continency; and yet is it not well known, that your priests and monks, like fed horses, have neighed after their neighbours wives; and your nuns have opened their feet (to use the prophet's phrase, when he speaketh of such-like skirts) to every one that passed by, and have multiplied their whoredoms?

6

Taceo de fornicationibus & adulteriis, à quibus qui alieni sunt, probro cæteris ac ludibrio esse solent, spadonesq; aut sodomitæ appelJantur;' saith Nicholas Clemangis, speaking of your priests.

I say nought of your priests fornications and adulteries, from which crimes, if any man be free, he is made a laughing-stock to the rest, and either called an eunuch or a sodomite.

Laici usque adeò persuasum habent nullos cœlibes esse, ut in plerisq; parochiis non aliter velint presbyterum tolerare, nisi concubinam

3 Ratio inelucta 25. pag 209.

1] 2 Sam. xv. 11. 2 O Locus Epist. opportunus & auro contra non carus, & quo facile protelem omnia adversariorum tela, &c. Bernart. lib. citato. pag. 109. bilis, saith Genebrard. Chron. lib. iv. Maximi ponderis arg. saith Flor. cap. 4 Leo IX Epist. ad Michaelem Episc. Constantinop. cap. 23. num. 29, pag. 398. 6 Jer. v. 8. 7 Ezech. xvi. 25. Simoniacis: In Bibliotheca santorum Patrum, printed at Paris, 1576, pag. 655.

5 N. D. lib. citat. 8 De Præsulibus