1 pass by this means, that the clergy were angry at him, for that he would not continue pope till his death. For so, some of you say, blessed Bernard told holy Elisabeth, when she desired to know the reason thereof. Damasus the Second hath his place in many popish chronicles in the throng of popes; yet there are many on the other side who let him go for one that is naught, and never number him. And in much like sort they deal with others. 4 3 2 Pap. If Pope Joan were omitted for the filthiness of her fact, why was that close-stool reserved, and that monument of her's, whereof you told me before, set up in one of the high streets in Rome? For the stool and the image were as like to continue the memory of her, as any record in writing. To be plain with you, I do not see how you can rid your hands of contradiction in this point. Prot. Well enough. For may not some be of one opinion, some of another? May not some think good to continue the memory of that, which others, for shame of the world, would have forgotten? Did not some of your fellow-papists in France deny, that John Chastell was taught by the Jesuits to murther Henry the Fourth of France, because they were loth to make the Jesuits odious? And yet did not others help to erect a pillar of stone near to the king's palace, whereby so much was notified? If any man should affirm, that the same man, who omitted Pope Joan for the filthiness of her fact, erected such a monument of her in the streets, and prescribed such a stool to be kept for such a purpose, I know not how he could deliver himself from contradiction. But, speaking of divers men, his speech hangeth well enough together; there is no shew of contradiction in it. For further proof whereof, it is worthy your consideration, that, when Paul the Third, moved with the Spirit of God, (as Harding saith) and desirous to reform the church, gave charge to his best learned, wisest, most godly and zealous men that he knew, four cardinals, three bishops, and two others, to enquire and search out what abuses and disorders were in the church, and especially in the court of Rome; which they did, offering up unto him a libel, containing the sum of all their proceedings. Some thought their labours worthy of registering; others thought them fitter to be burnt, which appears by this, that the libel is printed in Crab's edition of the council, anno 1551, and yet put into the Index librorum prohibitorum, by Paul the Fourth (one of those four cardinals who exhibited it to Paul the Third) and left out of Dominicus Nicolinus's edition of the councils at Venice, Auspiciis Sixti Quinti, in the year 1585; and out of Severinus Binnius's edition at Colen, 1606. 7 Pap. Yea, but give me leave I pray you. If Pope Joan were omitted for the filthiness of her fact, yet should there have been mention made of the vacancy of the see, for that time she was pope, or else there will be a manifest error in chronology. 2 Censent nonnulli 1 Plat. in vita Damasi II. Polonus in Chron. circa ann. 1040. hunc inter Pontifices nequaquam numerandum esse, saith Plat. loco citato. 3 Felix Iv. teste Massapo de Urbis Episcop. Lib. ii. in Vita Johan 1. pag. 85. 4 Florim, cap. 22. pag. 190. 5 See Le Franc's Discourse, printed anno 1602. 6 In his rejoinder to M. Jewel about the Mass, pag. 177. Rom. Pont. Cap. 24. 7 Bellarm, Lib. iii. de 2 Prot. A manifest error in chronology? A foul absurdity, indeed, to miss two years in reckoning! But, I trow, there are fouler than this, however the matter will be salved; for Onuphrius and Bristow reckon two hundred and thirty popes to Gregory the Thirteenth, and 'Genebrard two hundred and thirty-four, whereas, by Platina's account, there should be two hundred and thirty-five, for he reckons, to Paul the Second, with whom he ends, two hundred and twenty Popes; after whom, to Gregory the Thirteenth, every man reckons fifteen; which makes up the number of two hundred and thirty-five: yet Vesteganus, in his table printed at Antwerp, 1590, numbers no more than two hundred and thirty-one. Again, do not some of your chronologies record, that Euaristus sat thirteen years? Whereas others say he sat but nine years. Do not 4 some of them say, that Dennis sat eleven years? Others that he sat but two years? And do not these differences, and such as these are, whereof we have spoken before in part, argue manifest errors in your chronologies? If no further inconveniencies follow, upon Pope Joan's omission, than a manifest error in chronology for that space she lived, we may well enough believe, that some omitted her, not for that she was not, but that they were ashamed of her; for two years and odd months break no square in your chronologies, any more than an inch with a bungling carpenter. 5 6 3 Pap. Yea, but no-body, within four hundred years after, mentions her popedom; and, is it possible, that all writers should so conspire together, that the truth thereof could never be certainly known, till four hundred years after? 8 Prot. You lavish, when you talk of four hundred years after; for I have proved unto you already, by the books that are yet extant, that it was known sooner. But, suppose we had no writer, who lived within four hundred years of Pope Joan, to produce for proof, Will you, in that respect, deny the story; do not you papists commend unto us may stories, as true, for which you can bring us no proof out of any writer who lived within four hundred years after? You tell us of an image of Christ, which was made by Nicodemus, who came to our Saviour by night, for fear of the Jews; and of it you report wonderful things. But you are not able to name the man (shall I say, within four hundred years of Nicodemus? nay, not within six hundred years of Nicodemus) who writeth any such thing. Again, you tell us, that St. Luke drew certain pictures of the Virgin Mary: but Theodorus Lector is the ancientest man, that your friends alledge for proof of this; and he lived, at least, five hundred years after. Thirdly, "you write, that our Saviour Christ, wiping his face with an handkerchief, imprinted his image therein, and sent it to Agbarus for a token: but you can name no author for this, but " Evagrius, who 13 lived six hundred years after Christ. Fourthly, "the most of 9 10 12 2 Anastas. in Vita Euaristi. 1 So doth Massonus de Urbis Episcopis. 3 Baron. Annal. Tom. ii. ad ann. 121. num. 1. 5 Anastas. in Vita Dionysii. 6 Florim. cap. i. pag. 6. Knell of Thomas Bell, pag. 295 and 296. 4 Idem, Tom. ii. ad ann. 272. num. 21. 7 B. C. in his Doleful 8 Belların. Lib. ii. de Imag. cap. 10. 10 Lib. 1. Collectaneorum. 9 Idem, loco citato, & Gretser. de Cruce, lib. ii. cap. 1. 13 See Barom. Annal. tom. viii. ad ann. 594. num. 30. 14 Bellarm. lib. i. de Clericis, cap. 9. Pamelii Annotat. in Cypr. 'Epist. lii. num. 29. Carerius, de Potestate Rom. Pont. lib. i. cap. 18. Pet. de Natal. in Catal. Sanct. lib. viii. cap. 53. you hold it for a certain truth, that Adrian the Pope was content, that Charles the Great should nominate the bishop of Rome, and other bishops of his dominions; and yet there are, among yourselves, who write, that there can be no proof made thereof, out of any writer who lived within four hundred years of Charles the Great's time. That the Virgin Mary made that coat of our Saviour's, which was without seam, our Rhemists teach; and others of you add to that, that, as our Saviour grew in height and in breadth, so the coat on his back grew do you think, that there is an author within four hundred years after our Saviour's time, that taught so? 3 Turrian reports, and Gretser after him, That the apostles made this canon, in a council which they kept at Antioch: Ne decipiantur fideles ob idola, sed pingant ex opposito divinam humanamque manufactam impermixtam effigiem Die veri, ad Salvatoris Domini nostri Jesu Christi, ipsiusque servorum, contra idola & Judæos; neque errent in idolis, neque similes sint Judæis.' That is, Let not the faithful people be deceived by idols, but let them, on the contrary part, make the image of our Saviour Christ, both God and man, and the images of his servants; and let them not be deceived by idols, nor shew themselves like unto the Jews. But I do not believe, that this can be proved to be a canon of that council, by any writer within four hundred years of that time. Your rabbins alledge two councils, the one kept, as they say, in the year 303, the other in the year 324; both sounding much to the Pope's praise, and advancing of his authority; but, for any thing I read, the most learned among you can bring no proof, within four hundred years after, that any such councils were then kept. Nicholas the First, who lived in the year 860, is the first whom' Bellarmine names for that purpose. 8 Pap. Why, what say you to our ancient English histories written in the Latin tongue? To wit, William of Malmsbury, Henry Huntington, Roger Hoveden, Florentius Vigorniensis, and Matthew of Westminster: For I have one argument, of no small moment, as it seemeth to me, taken from them, for the overthrowing of the fable of Pope Joan. 9 Prot. When lived these writers, from whence you draw your argument? Pap. The 10 first four lived five hundred years ago, and the latest of them three hundred years, Prot. Fie, five hundred years ago!" William of Malmsbury continues his story to the year 1143; and " Henry Huntington his story till the reign of Henry the Second, which was 1154; and 13 Roger Hoveden continues his story to the year 1201; which argues, that the first four lived not five hundred years ago. But, What is your argument out of them? 1 Annot. in Joh. xix. 23. in Marg. p. 221. Col. 2. de Cruce, cap. i. tom. i. 2 Rudolphus de Vita Jesu, Part. II. cap. 63. 4 Gretser, Lib. II. 3 Turrian. Lib I. contra Magdeburg. cap. xxv. 5 Bellarm. Lib. II. de Rom. Pont. cap. xxvi. Baron. Annal. tom. x. ad annuin 963. num. 35. 6 Concilium Romanum & Synuessanum. 7 Loco supra citato. 8 N. D. Num. 25. pag. 393. 9 B. C. student in divinity, in his Doleful Knell of Thom. Bell, printed 1607, lib. ii. pag. 297, commends this for a very excellent argument. 10 N. D. num. 25. 11 Scripsit Historiarum Libros ad an. 1142, saith Possevin. Apparat. sac. Verbo, Guliel. Malms. but by the book itself (fol. 108) it is plain he continued it to the year 1143. 12 Vide Histor. Lib, viii, in Fine. 13 Fol. 464, b. Pap. No one of them all makes mention of this pope. Prot. Oh, Is that your argument? Why, I say to that, That our English histories might omit her upon like reason, as others of other countries omitted her, for her sex's sake, and for the filthiness of the fact. And do not you think this probable? Pap. No, by no means: For our English writers, above others, should have mentioned her, if any such had been. Prot. And why, I pray you? 2 Pap. Because King Alfred, living in Rome when Leo the Fourth died, and Benedict III. was chosen, must needs have known also Pope Joan, if any such had entered, and lived two years and a half between them. Prot. How know you, that King Alfred lived in Rome when Pope Leo died, and Benedict was chosen? Pap. 3 Because we read, that his father delivered him into the hands of Pope Leo the Fourth, to be instructed and brought up by him; and that the Pope received him with great kindness, and detained him there with him. Prot. That Alfred's father sent him to be anointed King, and that the Pope anointed him at his father's motion, we read indeed; but that his father delivered him to Leo to be instructed and brought up by him, we read not in Malmsbury, nor Huntington, nor Hoveden, nor Florentius; nor yet that the Pope detained him there with him: But, perhaps you can prove he staid at Rome, though it be not recorded that Leo detained him with him; now, therefore, let me hear your argument. Pap. "That Alfred lived in Rome some number of years, seemeth evident: First, for that he returned more learned, and otherwise better qualified, than any Saxon King had been before him. 6 Prot. This argument is framed out of your fingers ends, and not out of the stories; for the stories mention two journies which Alfred took to Rome; the former, when he was five years old, in the year 853, in which he was accompanied with the nobility: The second, when he was six years old, in the year 854, in which he went in his father's company, who staid in Rome a year. Now, though I find it not set down in particular, that he returned with his father, yet it is very likely by the circumstances; for the stories note, That he was always brought up in the King's court: And it is without all doubt, whensoever he returned, that he returned not better learned, nor better qualified; for, at twelve years old, and upward, he knew not a letter in the book; which the stories with great grief report. What is your next argument? 8 Pap.That Alfred lived in Rome some number of years, seemeth evident, for that we find no mention of his acts in England until the 1 N. D. p. 394. 2 N. D. p. 395. 3 N. D. p. 394. 4 Roger Hoveden, Annal. Pars prior. pag. 232. edit. Lond. and Florentius, in Chron ad ann. 853. 5 N. D. p. 395. 6 Hoveden. & Florentius locis citatis. 7 In Regio Curto semper inseparabiliter nutriebatur, saith Florent. lib. citato, p. 308, & Joh. Asser Episcop. Shyreburnensis in Hist. Alfredi, pag. 7, which history was printed at London, 1574, with Thomas Walsingham. 8 Usque ad 12. ætatis annum, proh dolor, literatus permansit. Asser. & 9 N. D. p. 395. Florent. loc. cit. reign of his third brother, Athelred, in the year 871, at the famous battle of Reading in Berkshire, fought against the Danes. 1 Prot. Alfred was but twenty-two years old in the year 871, and therefore no marvel, though, being in England, we read nothing of his acts. Yet, not to speak of his hawking and hunting in England, in his younger years, whereof the stories speak much, we read of his marriage three years before the battle of Reading, and of his going to aid the King of Mercia the same year; so that this proceeds on a false ground, as doth the former: Wherefore, unless you have better arguments to disprove the story of Pope Joan, you may prove yourself a fool, but never it a fable. 3 Pap. I am able to prove it a fable; for our foresaid writers do not only not make any mention of Pope Joan, that came between Leo the Fourth and Benedict the Third, but do expresly exclude the same, by placing the one immediately after the other, and assigning them their distinct number of years beforementioned, to wit, eight years and three months to Leo, and two years and six months, immediately following, to Benedict the Third. Prot. Who is your first witness of the truth of this? 4 Pap. Malmsbury in Fastis Reg. & Episcop. Angl. 847 & 855. Prot. Where might a man see that book of Malmsbury's? for I never read nor heard before of any such book made by him. True it is, that, in the end of Malmsbury, Huntington, Hoveden, Ethelwerdus, and Ingulphus, which are all printed in one volume, there is such a treatise; but that was made by Sir Henry Savile, who set them out: It was not made by Malmsbury; you may as well say, that Malmsbury made the Index rerum & verborum,' which follows after it. But who is your next witness ? Pap. Florentius in his Chronicle. Prot. Doth Florentius, in his Chronicle, give eight years and three months to Leo? Now, for shame of the world, leave lying. Florentius notes, that Leo began his papacy 853, and Benedict the Third, 858; whereby, it is apparent, that, in Florentius's opinion, Leo sat but five years; so is it apparent, that, in his opinion, Benedict sat five years; for Benedict, according to Florentius's reckoning, began 858, and Nicholas, his next successor, began 863. Now, from 858 to 863, there cannot be fewer than five years; so that, in prosecuting this argument, which is of your own devising, you have scarce spoken one true word. Pap. I pray you tell me how they called this Joan, when she read publickly in the schools at Rome. Prot. They call her John. How else? Pap. What; John? And was she called John after her election to to the popedom too? Prop. Yea, Why not? Pap. That is not likely; for Sergius, a few years before, had 1 Matth. Westm. Flores Hist. ad an. 871. fol. 245. 868. fol. 236. 3 N.D. p. 396. 6 N.D. pag. 396. in margine. 2 Matth. Westm. lib. citato, ad an. 4 N. D. p. 396. in Marg. 5 At Frankfort, anno 1601. 8 Florim, ibid. 7 Florim. cap. xxx. num. 4. |