1 Prot. I heard that of Sabellicus. For, writing of the same matter, 'Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo marmorea sella (saith he), circa medium inanis, qua novus Pontifex continuò ab eius creatione recedit, ut sedentis genitalia ab ultimo diacono attrectentur; that is, There is to be seen at this day, in the Pope's palace, a chair of marble, wherein the new pope presently upon his election is set down, that, as he sits, the lowest deacon may make trial of his humanity by touching. And you may find as much in William Brewin, who lived in the 2 year 1470; for, in Capella Salvatoris, saith he, Sunt duæ vel plures cathedræ de lapide marmoreo & cubio, cum foraminibus in iis sculptis,, super quas cathedras, ut audivi ibidem, est probatio Papæ, utrum sit masculus, annon; that is, In the chapel of our Saviour, there are two or three marble chairs with holes in them, wherein, as I heard there, they make proof whether the Pope be a man or no. Pap. Florimondus acknowledgeth, there is yet such a chair, wherein the Pope sits after his election. But that he sits therein, to such an end as you speak, that he utterly denies. Prot. And what is his reason? 4 Pap. Because he sits therein not in a corner, but in the great church of St. John Lateran, whither all the world, almost, comes to see him; where he is attended by the whole college of cardinals, and whereat there are many ambassadors of kings and princes; for a closer place were fitter for such a purpose. They might more conveniently have made trial of his humanity in the conclave where he was chosen. Prot. And so they did, it seems; for, presently upon their electing of him, before they proclaimed him pope, they set him in a chair in their conclave, as you may read in the book of holy ceremonies, dedicated to Leo the Tenth. Whereby you may see how idly Bellarmine talks, who, taking upon him to clear the point, never speaks of his sitting in the chair in the conclave, but only of his sitting in certain other chairs at St. John Lateran's, as though he had been chaired only in publick, and not in private; and that he himself had said sufficiently to the point in question, by proving, that in publick there was no such conclusion tried with the Pope; whereas the conclusion was tried in secret. But can you tell me what the end is, why the pope sits in such a chair in publick? Pap. Marry to the end that thereby he may be put in mind, that he is not God, but man; inasmuch as he stands in need of a closestool as well as others; for so saith Florimondus. 7 6 Prot. I promise you, and he had need be put in mind thereof. For, though some papist shamefully deny it, therere have been popish clawbacks, who in plain words, have termed the Pope, as St. Thomas termed Christ, their Lord and God; and there are 9 1 Æneid 9. Lib. i. principalibus urbis Romæ. 2 Wilhelmus Brewin in codice manuscripto de 7. Ecclesiis 5 Lib. iii. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 24. 7 N. D. in his Warn-word to Sir Francis Hastings's Encounter I. Cap. ii. Fol. 30. still who give him such titles as are due to God, and ascribe like power to him and God. But methinks they should not need to have set him in such a chair to such a purpose; for his own necessity would have driven him to set himself thereon ordinarily every day; and his chamber-pot would have served to put him in mind of his humanity sufficiently. For Antigonus the Elder knew by that, that he was man and not God, as 2 Plutarch writeth: Besides, methinks they should not have intended such a mystery by such a ceremony, because they set him therein before he was in his Pontificalibus; for, till he be mitered, till he be crowned, till he have received the keys, whereby is denoted his power to bind and loose; and a rod, whereby is denoted his power to punish the obstinate; methinks there should be no great fear of forgetting himself. For, till such ceremonies are performed, he is not in his ruff. Again, had it not been better, think you, if they had aimed at any such mark, to have caused a boy to come every morning unto the Pope's chamber-door (after the example of Philip, King of Macedonia) who should have whooped him out of his bed, and bid him remember, that he was mortal? 4 Pap. If you like not Florimondus's conjecture touching that ceremony, what say you to Bellarmine's, which is: That he is set on such a stool, to signify how he is raised from base estate to supreme honour? Prot. I say Bellarmine's conjecture is as improbable and fond as Florimondus's. For your Popes, since Pope Joan's days, have been chosen, for the most part, out of the number of your cardinals. And your cardinal's estate is not so base, as that he, who is advanced from that unto the papacy, can be truly said to be taken in any sort from off a close-stool. For they are generally princes fellows. Yea some of them, you cannot but know, have not been ashamed to prefix their own names before their own king's, using these words; I and my King: wherefore, unless you can render me some better reason, why your Popes are set on such a seat, I shall remain persuaded, that, in former times, it was for proof of their humanity, upon the accident aforesaid. Pap. Enjoy your opinion for me. But where read you that there was such an image in the church of Siena, which the Jesuits would have defaced, but that the bishop of the place would not suffer them? Prot. That I have heard by many travellers, and read in Master Bell; both in his book of Motives concerning the Romish Religion, and in his Survey of Popery; whereunto never a papist of you all dare answer. 7 Pap. Yes we dare, though we do not. But I can tell you news: That image of Pope Joan, which was set up in the Church of Siena, is cast down by the commandment of Clement the Eighth, by the 1 Plane supremum in terris numen. Stapleton. princip. fidei doctrin. præfat. ad Greg. xiii. 2 Part ii. Moral. Lib. de Iside & Osiride. 4 Lib. iii. de Rom, Pont. Cap. 24. 3 Stobæus Serm. 19. ex Æliano. 5 Cardinalatus celsitudo ac splendor, dignitati regiæ comparatur, Sixtus v. in constitut. 5 in princip. & sect. Præterea Joh. Franciscus Leo in Thesauro Fori Ecclesiastici, Part. I. Cap. ii. Num. 1. .. 7 Part III. Cap. ii, p 191. p. 80. 6 Lib. 2. Cap. 6. Conclus. iii. 8 Florim. Cap. xxii. p. 194. means of Cæsar Baronius, at the request of Florimondus. Cæsar Baronius hath certified Florimondus so much by a letter, and, for joy, Florimondus hath published it unto the world. 1 Prot. What? Is that image cast down too? Florimondus might do well to make request to the present Pope, that those books which write of Pope Joan may be burned; in hope, that the present Pope will as readily burn the books, as Clement the Eighth threw down that image, and Pius Quintus the other. And so, in time to come, when all evidences are embezzled, and all monuments defaced, and made out of the way, it will be a plain case there was never any Pope Joan. Pap. Oh! this angers you, I perceive. And yet why should you be angry at the throwing down of this? For, suppose it had stood still, is there any sense, that, because of such an image, we should be bound the rather to believe there was such a Pope? I can tell you, if we believe painters and carvers, we may soon mar all; for, in St. Andrew's church at Bourdeaux, one of the excellentest churches in all France, our Saviour Christ is described ascending up to heaven upon the back of a flying eagle, which stands not well with the scripture. 6 Prot. That is true, if we believe your painters and carvers, we shall soon mar all indeed: For we find the Trinity painted by you, sometimes in the likeness of a man with three faces; sometimes in the likeness of a man with two heads, having a dove between them; both which fashions of painting the Trinity are monstrous, in Bellarmine's opinion. We find our Saviour Christ painted with long hair, as though he had been a Nazarite by vow; which conceit is controuled by scripture. We find him set on a weather-cock upon the top of the temple of Jerusalem, as though that temple had had a spire-steeple like ours, which is neither so, nor so. We find the Virgin Mary treading on the serpent's head, which the the scriptures foretold, that Christ himself should do. We find her set out in a gown of wrought gold, whereas, no question, she was meanly appareled, and with a pair of beads in her hand; whereas, of a thousand years after Christ, there were no beads in the world. In like sort we find Moses painted with two horns, ⚫ John Baptist in a raw camel's skin, 10 John the Evangelist like a beardless boy, when he writ his gospel. Mary Magdalen in a loose gown, "St. Jerome in his cardinal's robes, all which is false as God is true. Besides, your painters recommend unto us a saint on horseback, whom they call George; and another saint on foot, as big as a giant, whom they call Christopher; and a she saint, broken upon a wheel, and whom they call Catharine; and a fourth, drawn in pieces with horses, whom they call Hippolytus; whereas, in all antiquity, " there is no mention of any such saints; so that you never spoke a truer word in your life, than this, That, if we believe painters and carvers, we shall 1 Page 195. 12 Si ea, quæ ab artificibus manu finguntur, credamus esse vera, interdum veteris & novi Testamenti historiam pervertemus, &c, Florim. p. 193. 3 Lib. ii. de Imag. Cap. 8. 8 Hieron. ab. Oleastro 4 For Nazarites must drink no wine, Numb, vi. 3. yet our Saviour did, Mat. xi. 19. and xxvi. 29. 5 Tho. de Truxillo. Ord. Prædic. Domin. 1. Quadrag. conc. 1. 6 Gen. iii. 7 Teste Polydoro Virgil. de Invent. Rerum, Lib. v. Cap. 9. in Exod. xxxiv. & Aug. Steuchus in Recognit. Vet. Test. ad Hebraicam Verit. in Exod. xxxiv. 9 Jansen. Concord. Evang. Cap. xiii. 10 In novis Bibliis Sixti Quinti, & Clem. viii. yet he writ it ninety; ætatis aunum excedens, ut docet Baron. Annal Tom. i. ad An. 99. Num. 2 11 Scultingius Confessio Hieronymana. Polyd. Virg. de Invent Rerum, Lib. iv. 9. 12 For proof whereof, see D. Rayn. de Rom. Ecclesiæ Idololat: Lib. I. Chap. v. Num. xxi, &t: soon mar all. But what, if book-proof concur with painting and carving, may we not then, without fear of marring all, give credit to painters and carvers? Your Bellarmine is of opinion, that there can be no error in substance, as long as, besides book-proof, there be monuments of stone, or of brass, for the proof of any ancient report. And, if he speak the words of truth, the truth is with us; for, besides monuments of stone, we have the testimonies of many writers. Pap. But not so many as you brag of, I believe; and, besides, those you have are but paltry writers. Prot. That shall be seen by a more particular view of them: Wherefore, first, what say you to Charanza, the last of them whom I named, who was a divinity-reader among you, and, afterwards, Archbishop of Toledo in Spain? Was he a paltry writer? or, Hath he not this story, in your opinion? Pap. I think he hath it not. For Florimondus names Charanza among them, who disproved the story of Pope Joan, before he himself fell to disprove it. Prot. Doth he so? Doubtless then, he belyes Charanza; for this is all that Charanza writes of that argument: Johannes viii, Papa 105 sub Petro, sedit An. 2. mens. 1. dies 4. De hoc ferunt, quod malis artibus pontificatum adeptus est, quoniam, cum esset fæmina, sexum mentitus est; & postea a servo compressa, doloribus circumventa, mortua est. Which, in English, is thus: John the Eighth, the one hundred and fifth Pope from St. Peter, sat two years, one month, and four days. They report of this person, that he got the papacy by evil means, be cause he feigned himself to be a man, whereas, in truth, he was a woman; who, being afterwards begot with child by one of her servants, fell in travel and died thereon; and this is not disproving of it, is it trow you? Pap. No verily, if he say no more of it; but perhaps he saith more, and you conceal it from me. Prop. Not a word, I warrant you, in way of disproving it: Where fore let us go on, and observe who, and what manner of men, the rest are, who bear witness with us in this case. What say you to Krantius? Hath he not this story? or, Is he but a paltry writer? 6 Pap. Krantius is commended by Pontanus, for a famous historio→ grapher. And, seeing he wrote before Luther's days, there is no reason, as Bellarmine notes upon another occasion, that he should be suspected to write any thing for love or hatred. But hath he this story? Prot. Yea; for these are his own words: Johannes Anglicus, ex Moguntia mulier, mentita sexum, quum acutissimo ingenio & promptissima lingua doctissimè loqueretur, adeo in se convertit omnium animos, ut pontificatum adipisceretur, uno famulo sexum ejus cognoscente, a quo compressa prægnans efficitur; & fertur peperisse apud Colosseum, An. 2. necdum expleto, in partu moritur: Which, in 1 Lib. II. de Rom. Pont. Cap. xi. illis vilius. Florim. cap. xxxi. nu. i. Charanza. 4 Cap. xxxi. num. vi. 2 Si hujus commenti authores spectes, nihil 3 Possevinus Apparat. sacro, verbo, Barth. 5 In Sum. Conc. p. 370. Edit. Paris. 1564. 7 Krantius, homo Germanus, & qui ante Lutheranus contentiones scripsit, proinde nec odio nec amore ducebatur lib. ii. de Effectu Sacram. cap. ix. 6 Chronograph. lib. ii. 8 Metrop. lib. ii. edit. Colon. 1574, & Francofurt. 1590. effect, sounds thus: John English, a woman of Mentz, dissembled her sex, and being of a quick wit and glib tongue, and one that could speak very scholar-like, she so won the hearts of all men, that she got the papacy, no man knowing any other, but that she was a man, save one of her servants, who afterwards got her with child. They say she was delivered near the Colosses, before she had sitten full two years. Thus Krantius. Pap. And hath Mantuan the same, whom you cited next before Krantius? 1 Prot. Yea, Mantuan, who is commended by Trithemius for a great divine, an excellent philosopher, and a famous poet, the only man in all Italy in his time: Mantuan, at whom the people pointed, as he went in the streets, and said, This is he; which was wont to he held a matter of extraordinary credit. Mantuan, of whom Picus Mirandula, Pontanus, Beroaldus, Baronius, Possevin, and divers others, give honourable testimony. This Mantuan hath this story; for, falling to describe hell, and what manner of persons were in hell: Hic, saith he, pendebat adhuc sexum mentita virilem Which in effect sounds thus much: Here hanged the woman who went like a man, and came to the popedom. that committed adultery with her. And here hanged he, Pap. You say right; for I remember now that Florimondus confesseth the tale is in Mantuan. But Mantuan deserves no credit in this; for he writes worse of her than ever any did before him; and feigns, very ridiculously, that her horsekeeper, who got her with child, and she were both hanged together. Prot. Mantuan talks of no horsekeeper of her's, but in general of one, who committed adultery with her; nor of any hanging, save of their hanging in hell, which is likely enough to be true. Your Florimondus can lay his finger upon nothing, but he grimes it. He can comment upon no man's words, but he wrests them. There is not a word in Mantuan more, concerning her, than that which is comprehended in the three verses cited. Pap. At better leisure, I will examine your words more narrowly. Prot. Is not this plain? Pap. What is there in the Epistle of the Universities of Oxford, Paris, and Prague, which makes for you? Prot. In that Epistle set out by Huldericus Hutten, Anno 1520, we read thus: Joh. successor Leonis IV, cœpit circa An. Dom. 854, & sedit an. 2. & mens. 5. fœmina fuit, & in papatu impregnata. John, who succeeded Leo IV, was chosen Pope about the year 854. 1 De Script. Ecclesiasticis, verbo, Baptista Mantuanus. Hieron. Carmelita, ad initium Tom. ii. Operum Mantuani. sacro, tom. i. verbo, Baptista. 2 Philip. Beroaldus, 3 Possevin, in Apparat. 4 Tom. iii. lib. iii. Alphonsi. fol. 44. edit. Francof. 1573. 6 Stabuli pontificii præfectam cum illa, laqueo in collum inserto 5 Cap. 22. num. 3. suspensum, commentatur Florim. ibid. & cap. 23. num.6. |