compared it with that which is written of the same argument, by Buchingerus, in Germany, by Charanza, in Spain, by Onuphrius, and Bellarmine, and Baronius, in Italy; by Turrian, and Bernartius, in Belgia; by Pontacus, in Aquitania, by Genebrard, and Papyrius Massonus, in France; by Saunders, by Cope, by Harding, by Father Parsons, and others of our own country. Prot. And what say you now, after the reading of all these, to the story of Pope Joan? Tell me in good carnest, and dissemble not. 5 Pap. I say, the very truth is, that the whole story of Pope Joan is 'a fable, a 'fond and vain fable, a mere fable, an heretical fable, a ' ridiculous fiction, and so known to the learneder sort of protestants among you; but that you will not leave to delude the world with it, for lack of other matter. Yea', I say further, there are so many improbabilities and moral impossibilities in this tale, as no man, of any mean judgment, discretion, or common-sense, will give credit thereto, but will easily see the vanity thereof; and, in a word, "I say, he was a knave that devised it, and he is a fool that believeth it. 8 Prot. Now this is excellent in good truth, I see there is mettle in you: But what reason have you on your side, that you are so peremptory? Did it run for courant, without controulment, till within these forty years, or thereabout, to wit, till the year 1566, that Onuphrius, the friar, began to boggle at it? Was not Onuphrius the first that ever, by reason, sought to discredit the report of it? And yet doth not even he confess, that many men of worth, as well as of ordinary sort, believed it for a truth? Is it not to be found in Marianus Scotus, in Sigebert, in Gotefridus Viterbiensis, in Johannes de Parisiis, in Martinus Polonus, in Petrarch, in Boccace, in Ranulfus Cestrensis, in Johannes Lucidus, in Alphonsus de Carthagena, in Theodoricus de Niem, in Chalchondylas, in Wernerus Rolenink, in Platina, in Palmerius, in Nauclerus, in Sabellidus, in Trithemius, in Volaterran, in Bergomensis, in Schedel, in Laziardus, in Fulgosus, in Textor, in an epistle written by the universities of Paris, Oxford, and Prague, to all at Rome; in Mantuan, in Crantius, in Charanza, and a number more of your own faction, and of your own friends? of which some were Grecians, some Italians, some Spaniards, some French, some Germans, some Polonians, some Scots, some English, and yet never a one of them a Lutheran. Yea, do we not find it in some of your stories set down in pictures? And is not so much to be gathered by that image of her's, which is set up amongst the rest of the images of the Popes, in the renowned church of Siena in Italy, and is to be seen there at this day; which the Bishop of that place would not suffer to be defaced, at the last repairing of that church, though your Jesuits 10 1 Onuph. Annot. in Plat. in vita Joh. viii. 2 Harding inh is answer to Juel's apology. 3 N. D. Part. ii. C. 5, Num. xxi. p. 391. of the 3 Convers. 6 Idem Num. xxi. p. 391. 4 Idem Num. xxvi. p. 403. 7 Idem Num. xxxvi. p. 403. 5 lbid. 8 Impudentissime ficta, stultissime credita. Bernartius de utilitate legenda Hist. Lib. it. 9 Multos & magni nominis viros historiam hanc suscipere, eam p. 105. in marg. quoque vulgo veram existimari. Loco supra citato. 10 Barthol. Cass. ii. part. Catal. gloriæ mundi, nona Consideratio. Job. Turrecremat. in Summa, Lib. iv. Part. 2. Cap. 20. Carolus Molinæus, Comment. in Parisiens. Consueiud. Tit. Nu. 26. Cælius Rhodigin. Antiquarum Lect. Lib. viii. Cap. 1. did earnestly request him to deface it? Was there not made of old, for fear of such like after-claps, a stool of easement, on which they were set at their creation, for proof of their humanity? was there not a marble image set up, as a monument thereof, in that place where she miscarried, to wit, in one of the chiefest streets in Rome? Which monument was to be seen likewise within these few years, even in Pius the fifth's time. And is it not written by men among yourselves, That your popes, when they go in procession, refuse to go through that street, in detestation of that fact, and go further about? how say you, is it not even thus? Pap. It is written, I confess, that our popes, in detestation of that fact, when they go in procession to the Lateran church, refuse to go through that street, but they who write so mistake the matter. For the true reason why they turn out of that street, which is the nearer way, is, for that that street is angusta et anfractuosa, a narrow street, and such a one as winds this way, and that way, and in that respect, unfit for so great a train, as ordinarily accompanies the Pope, to pass orderly through; as 'Onuphrius, and 2 Bellarmine, and Florimondus have observed. 6 3 Prot. Say you so? Why, but if it be true, which Philippus Bergomensis hath storied, this observation is false; for, Eo omisso, saith he, speaking of the Pope's turning out of that place of the street, wherein dame Joan was delivered, Declinat ad diverticula, vicosque & sic, loco detestabili postergato, reintrantes, iter perficiunt quod cœperunt; that is, leaving that way, they turn into by-lanes, and by streets; and as soon as they are beyond that detestable place, they turn into their high-way again, and so go on in their procession. For if, upon their leaving that street, they enter into by-lanes and by-streets, and as soon as they are past that ominous place, turn in again; the reason why they leave that street cannot be, for that it is narrow and winding in and out. For no question, but those by lanes are as narrow; and by their turning out, and returning into the same way again, they wind as often in and out, as if they went along through the same street, though it were very crooked. But howsoever, shift it among you : for it sufficeth me, that you cannot deny, but that which I told you concerning this point, is written by men of your own religion; especially seeing Platina, who knew Rome well enough, and was desirous to cover the Popes nakedness herein, as much as he could with any honesty, confesseth, that this is probable enough. What have you to say to the rest of my speech? 5 Pap. Much. For whereas you say Onuphrius was the first who by reason sought to discredit the report of it; that is not so. Johannes de Columna, a good writer of chronicles, long before Onuphrius, hath likewise utterly rejected the vanity of this fable, as Doctor Harding noteth. Prot. Johannes de Columna's history is extant in Latin in the university library at Oxford; and in French, in New College library. 1 Loco supra citato 3 Fabula Joauna, cap. 21. p. 184. 5 De Vitis Pont. in vita Job, viii. 2 Lib. iii. de Rom. Pont. cap. 24. 4 In Supplement Chron. ad An. 858. 6 Confutat. of the Apology, Part iv. Fol. 166. But there is not one word, good, or bad, for, or against Pope Joan in it. If he rejected it, he rejected it by silence. Pap. But Johannes Aventinus rejected it in plain words: And he wrote a good many years before Onuphrius. 2 Prot. Johannes Aventinus (I grant) rejects it as a fable in one word, but he gives no reason of his rejecting of it. Besides, Bellarmine casts him off as a writer of small credit; and Baronius brands him, not merely for a scabbed sheep, but for an heretical scabby beast, destitute both of honesty and learning; and divers of your popes have cried down this history, as unworthy of reading; wherefore I see no reason, that his reasonless rejecting of it doth any way prejudice the truth of it. What have you else to say? Pap. First I would know, Who told you there was such a marble image in one of the streets at Rome? Prot. Theodoricus de Niem, who was secretary to one of your popes, told me that; for Adhuc vetus statua marmorea illic posita figurativè monstrat hoc factum,' saith Theodoricus de Niem; that is, Unto this day an old marble image erected in that place sheweth the matter under a figure. Pap. Indeed I cannot deny but that in former ages many have said so, and, to confess a truth, I myself have read as much in Antonius, archbishop of Florence, and in Peter Mexia. But verily that image resembled no such thing. For neither was it like a woman lying in child-bed, nor was the boy, which was engraven by her, like a child in the swadling-clouts, but like one of some years. Prot. This your exception is to no purpose; for that age was a learnless and a witless age. And therefore, perhaps, had no more skill in engraving, carving, and painting, than they had (of whom we read in an epistle of Sir Thomas More's unto Erasmus) who pictured an hare and a grayhound so like, that no man could know the one from the other, till he, full wisely, writ under, This is the dog,-This is the hare; as they of whom Appian writes, making mention of some, who were driven to set either under, or above their pictures, Hoc est bos, illud equus, hic arbor,' that men might know what kind of creature it was that they had painted. Questionless Æneas Silvius, pointing to a better time than that of Pope Joan's, condemns the painters and carvers thereof, for notorious bunglers, saying thus, Si ducentorum, trecentorumve annorum, aut sculpturas intueberis, aut picturas; invenies non hominum, sed monstrorum portentorumque facies; that is, If thou observe the engraven or painted images, which were made two or three-hundred years ago, thou shalt find, that they are faced more like monsters, and hobgoblins, than men. Now if they were such, what marvel, though intending to engravea woman travelling, or rather newly delivered of a child, they did it but untowardly? But what I pray you doth that image represent, if it represent not Pope Joan? 1 Annalium Boiorum, Lib iv. 2 Joh. Aventinus author parum probatæ fidei, saith Bell, Append ad Lib. de sum, pont. Cap. 10. 6 Florimond. Lib. citato, cap. 21. num. 2. 1563. Pag. 441. 5 Lib. de Privilegis & Juribus Imperii. 7 Inter opera Mori impressa Basil. 9 Epist. 120. 8 Elian. de varia hist. Lib. x. Pap. Cardinal Bellarmine seems to like of their opinion, who guess that some heathenish priest, who was about to offer sacrifice, and had his man before him, is denoted thereby. But I am rather of 2 Florimondus's mind, who thinks it was an idol, even an image of some of the gods of the heathen. Prot. If it had represented a sacrificing priest, and his man, the man should have been engraved behind, and not before his master. For the servant followeth his master, 3 as the young man, that bare Jonathan's armour, followed Jonathan; wherefore you have reason to leave Bellarmine in this. But why do you incline to Florimondus ; doth he give you any reason for this opinion; or alledgeth any author of his opinion? Pap. Yes he professeth that he followeth Onuphrius therein, who was a most diligent antiquary. Prot. But he lyes in that. For Onuphrius speaks not one word good or bad of this marble image. He passeth it over in silence, as though no man had ever spoken of it. Pap, I marvel if that be so. But yet I rest persuaded upon Florimondus's next reason, that that image resembled not Pope Joan. For if the engraver had purposed to express such a matter, and to continue thereby the memory thereof to the world's end, he would have set some inscription over it; for so do all men who ereet monuments for remembrances. Prot. That is not so, for we read in Eusebius, that the woman who was cured by our Saviour Christ of her issue of blood, &c. erected, after the custom of the heathen, an image of him no doubt for remembrance sake. But we read of no inscription written upon it. In the book of Joshua we read, that the Israelites were commanded to lay twelve stones upon an heap, as a memorial unto their children for ever: And yet it is plain by the circumstances, they set nothing thereon in writing. When you paint St. Peter, you paint him with keys in his hand, and set no inscription over his head, nor under his feet, as Baronius confesseth. Wherefore, for any thing I yet hear, it is most probable that it was set up for a monument of Pope Joan. Pap. Enjoy your conceit. But 10 I can tell you one thing: That image is now removed out of that place. For Sixtus Quintus, that great builder and mender of high-ways, when he made that street straight wherein that image was, was forced to remove that image. 9 Prot. Belike, that image would have been some blemish unto the street, if it had remained; and that made him move it. Pap. Yea marry would it. Prot. Now well fare his heart that was so careful to rid the streets of such a combersome monument. But who told you that Sixtus Quintus removed it upon that occasion? 1 Lib. iii. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 24. 3] 1 Sam. xiv. 12, 13. 2 Cap. citat. num. 6. 4 Cum Onuphrio Pauvino antiquitatis perscrutatore diligentissimo vetus aliquod idolum existimavi. Florim. İbid. 5 Inscriptionem præfixisset. pag. 188 8 Cap. iv. 7. 8. sac. verbo, Cæsar Baron. 6 Lib. vii. Hist. Cap. 14. 7 Matt. ix. 21. 9 Obervat. in Annal. tom. i. ad an. 57. apud Possevin. in apparat. 10 Sixtus Quintus hunc vicum rectiorem duci curavit, que factum est ut imago illa sublata sit. Florim. Cap. 21 Pag. 189. Prot. 1 Florimondus. Pap. Was it he? Then know him for a lyar, whilst you live; for it was Pius Quintus, and not Sixtus Quintus, who removed it. Prot. And Pious Quintus removed it, and cast it into Tiber, not for that it disgraced the street; but ut memoriam historiæ illius aboleret ; that he might extinguish the memory of that shameful act. And this is witnessed not only by some travellers, who were at that time in Rome; but by Elias Hassenmuller, one (once) of your fiery order of Jesuits. Your Florimondus will not deserve (I fear) half the commendation you have given him. 2 of Pap. I doubt not but he will acquit himself like a man, whatsoever you can say against him. But whence had you that of the stool of easement, I pray you, for3 in Bellarmine I read, that, de sede ad explorandum sexum nulla usquam mentio:' Of a stool of casement, to try the Pope's sex, there is no where any mention; and in Onuphrius, That it is but a mere toy, and an idle conceit of idle people. 4 5 7 6 Prot. That of the stool of easement, is recorded by Philippus Bergomensis, a man of great worth in his time, as Trithemius witnesseth. For upon mention made of Pope Joan's story,' Ad evitandos similes errores statutum fuit,' saith he, ne quis de cætero in B. Petri collocaretur sede, priusquam per perforatam sedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab ultimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur. That is, for avoiding like error in future times, it was decreed, that no man should be held for pope, till the youngest cardinal deacon had found by trial, while he set upon a stool of easement, that he was a man. And it is likewise testified by LaonicusChalchondylas. For upon relation of that story, he goes on thus: Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum, sed rem cognoscant, neque ambigant; pontificis creati virilia tangunt, & qui tangit, acclamat: Mas nobis Dominus est,' that is, Lest they should be deceived again, they make proof by feeling; and he that feeleth makes it known by crying out: We have a man Pope. And by Friar Robert: For, 'duxit me spiritus ad Lateranense Palatium, & posuit me in porticu ante sedes Porphyrii ubi dicitur probari Papa an sit homo.' My good spirit (saith he) led me unto the palace of Lateran, and set me in the gallery before the chairs of Porphyry, wherein they say the Pope is tried whether he be a man or no man. And you may find as much in a later papist, who, within these few years, writ a book of the harmony of Romish magistrates, and in it this. 9 Pap. You say true indeed. For I now remember Florimondus confesseth so much, yet he reproveth the author for writing so. But let us go on; for I long to hear of whom you heard that such a chair was to be seen, in the Pope's palace, within these few years. 1 Loco citato. 2 Historia Jesuitici Ordinis, Cap. 10. de Jesuitarum Patre & Matre. 4 Fabulosum, & ab imperito vulgo fictum. 3 Lib. iii, de Rom. Pont. Cap. 24. Annotat in Plat. in vit. Joh. viii. 5 Nobiliter doctus, historiographus celeberrimus Trith. de Scrip. Eccles verbo, Jacobus Bergomensis. 6 In Supplement. Chron. ad An. 858. 7 De Rebus Turcicis, Lib. vi. Pag. 98. 8 Lib. Visionum impressus Paris 1513. Cap. 3. Fol. 25. 9 Cap. 18, p. 159. In ridiculorum authorum grege annumerandus est. |