Roman Catholic hierarchy had_never tablishment of new sectarian Colleges allowed the appointment of a Roman within the Universities. It was true Catholic Dean of Residence. Such, that an Amendment was moved by his then, was the condition of University hon. and learned Friend the Member Education in Ireland. They had two for the City of Oxford with that object; secular Universities, and in one of them but the House refused to entertain the they had a College, the discipline and question, and the result was Keble Colatmosphere of which were Anglican and lege was established-a College more Episcopalian. Let him now turn to the sectarian than the sectarians, and more state of things existing in the English Episcopal than the Bench of Bishops. Universities; and it was necessary to do That College, he was informed, was now so, because it was frequently stated that crowded from roof to basement, while there was not only in Ireland a grievance Hertford College, founded originally by as between the Roman Catholics and the the amalgamation of two old endowProtestants, but also that that inequality ments which came within the Act of was made doubly conspicuous by refer- 1871, had received a practically sectarian ence to the state of things which they had character by accepting a large private allowed to grow up in English Univer-endowment with sectarian conditions atsities. By the Act passed in 1871 by the Government of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich, all religious tests and disabilities were removed from the endowments of the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Durham; but the services in the College chapels were still allowed to remain part of the discipline of the place, and in most of the Colleges lectures on theology-Anglican theology-were still given. He said nothing here about the University teaching of theology and the University Professors in that school, because, no doubt, if the Church of England were disestablished, the University Schools of Theology would be disestablished too, or would be deprived of their exclusive character. They could not compare the condition of things in Ireland, where the Church was disestablished, with the condition of things in England, where the Church was not disestablished. Therefore, he put aside at present the University Schools of Theology in England as being outside the question, and having made that exception, he thought he should not be misdescribing the condition of things introduced by the Tests Act of 1871 as being closely akin to that existing in the University of Dublinthat was, that while they had secularized the endowments of the Universities and the Colleges within them, they had not secularized the discipline and what he might call the atmosphere of the place, which still remained Anglican and Episcopalian. Some flowers from the unsectarian Eden were scattered among them, but "the trail of the serpent was over them all." But that was not all. The Tests Act of 1871 did not forbid the es Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice tached. He was also informed that a College similar to Keble, called Selwyn College, was shortly going to be established at Cambridge, and was likely to be as much sought after as Keble. Such, then, was the condition of things at the English Universities in regard to foundations made subsequently to the Act of 1871. Every facility was given for the incorporation within the Universities, by charter, of sectarian Colleges. There was only one check, that the charter for 40 days must remain on the Table of that House. Now, he thought the House would at once see that what the Episcopalians of Ireland and of England did possess, and what the Roman Catholics of Ireland did not possess, was the right of having a College or Colleges of their own in which the discipline and atmosphere of the place should be that of their own religion, and in which the teaching of theology of their own school of thought should be taught by lecturers enjoying the confidence of their own communion. Here he might mention that he was fully aware that he might be told that the School of Theology at Dublin was a University school and not a College school. Now, that simply arose from the great difficulty of distinguishing between the University of Dublin and Trinity College. Personally, he believed that the School of Theology at Dublin was quite as much, if not more, a Collegiate than a University school; but, be that as it might, his argument was not affected thereby, because he approved that portion of the abortive Bill of 1872 which clearly separated in law the University from the College, and he thought it would be desirable that in any legislation upon the question | of opinion, whether religious or political. the School of Theology should be clearly He was aware that some wits connected separated from the University and at- with the College at Cambridge which tached to the College, and to the College bore the same name thought fit in times only. He recurred, then, to his original past to sneer at their "silent sister; proposition, that there was equality as re- but he believed that wit was never more garded University Education between Pro- misapplied, as that so-called "silent testant and Catholic, but not as regarded sister," in every department of science, Collegiate education. Now, perhaps he art, and literature, had ever held, and should be told that there was an easy still held, a proud and conspicuous posiand simple way of settling all these diffi- tion. What, then, he proposed was culties by prohibiting the religious ser- that one or more of the existing Roman vices, and putting an abrupt end to the Catholic Colleges in Ireland should be religious lectures and teaching which he incorporated either in the University of had mentioned. His reply to any such Dublin or in the Queen's University. proposition was that it was impossible. The latter course would, he thought, As an old member of the Birmingham raise fewer difficulties. As to what ColLeague, he was in no manner ashamed lege should be selected, the old charter of saying that nobody in that House had of the University of London, with its list contended more firmly than he had for of affiliated Colleges, would afford a the absolute separation of secular and guide. He believed it would be found religious teaching; but there was a time upon inquiry that Carlow College would and a place for everything, and, as a be able to prove a better claim than any practical man, he knew that these ques- of its possible competitors. Its head, tions were fought, and settled for a con- Dr. Kavanagh, was a man of undoubted siderable period, between 1870 and 1873, ability and learning, and he believed although, no doubt, some day they would that former Examiners of the London be re-opened, there being no such thing University would be found ready to state as finality. But, because at some future that students from that College had altime, and at some remote date, they ways come up well and carefully prehoped to push their own principles fur- pared. Then there was the College of ther, were they in the interval to inflict St. Patrick on Stephen's Green, an instia grave injustice and inequality on the tution endeared to Catholics by its assoRoman Catholics of Ireland? He thought ciation with the struggles connected with not. That being so, there was only one that question. He confessed to having other alternative, which was to give to never himself heard very favourable the Roman Catholics of Ireland the same accounts of the teaching in that College; Collegiate privileges which they had but he was willing to bow to the high given to the English and Irish Episcopa- authority of his right hon. Friend the lians. He might be told that he was Member for the University of Edinburgh advocating the scheme of the late Mr. (Mr. Lyon Playfair), who, he knew, had Butt. He acknowledged it; but there expressed a strong opinion in the conwas this difference between his view and trary direction. Therefore, he proposed Mr. Butt's-that he proposed that there that Carlow College and St. Patrick's should be a State endowment given to should be incorporated within the the Catholic College, whereas he (Lord Queen's University. But he might Edmond Fitzmaurice) did not; and Mr. be told that this was not enough, and Butt further proposed that that endow that those two Colleges would not ment should be got by appropriating be able to hold the youth of Ireland, a considerable portion of the revenues who would flock in to obtain a Colof Trinity College. Now, he protested legiate education. Well, his mind was against the disendowment of any corpo- quite open on the question, because ration, unless they could prove abuse he shared the opinions, based on Scotch and misapplication of funds; and no- experience, of his right hon. Friend, body, English or Irish, Catholic or Pro- that University Education was not merely testant, had ever suggested such a thing a luxury of the upper classes; but he in regard to Trinity College, Dublin; believed in any case, at starting, the on the contrary, that institution was one incorporation of two Colleges would be which was always spoken of with respect enough. But that was not all. and admiration by persons of every shade would propose that a general examining He power should be conferred upon the Queen's University, similar to that possessed by the London University in its supplemental charter. He had always considered that the loss of that privilege, through the discovery of a technical error in the supplemental charter actually granted in 1866, was an immense misfortune. He wanted to say a word about that supplemental charter. It had been constantly and falsely represented that the object of those who advised Her Majesty to grant the supplemental charter was surreptitiously, and by a side wind, to introduce the Catholic College into the Queen's University; and he confessed to having believed that himself at one ime. But it was an utter mistake, as was pointed out by Sir Dominic Corrigan in 1872, who spoke with much authority on the question, being Vice Chancellor of the University. He said the supplemental charter was not passed to admit the students of the Roman Catholic University, but was passed to admit, on the same system as the London University, all candidates on undergoing certain examinations; but the Rolls' Court, in deciding against the supplemental charter, merely decided on a legal point-that was, "that the Senate of the University should not accept the charter without the joint assent of Convocation." That was a very important point. What were the words of the abortive Charter? They were these "We do will, ordain, constitute, and declare that the said University, created by our said Charter, shall have power to grant to any person who may have matriculated in the said University, and who may be deemed qualified by the Senate of the said Queen's University in Ireland, to obtain the same, all such or any of the degrees or distinctions which by our said Charter the said Queen's University in Ireland is empowered to grant, notwithstanding that such persons may not have matriculated in any of the said Colleges, or pursued any of their studies therein." Then followed a similar clause, enabling any person to matriculate, although not educated in any of the Queen's Colleges. Now, the reason why the decision of the Rolls' Court was so disastrous was that if the University had been thrown open it would have been possible to endow the University with a variety of prizes and emoluments which could have been competed for upon equal terms by the whole youth of Ireland, whether educated in the Queen's Colleges or not. These, then, were his recommendations Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice to meet the Roman Catholic grievance in Ireland-namely, one or more Catholic Colleges in the Queen's University, and an amendment of the Charter of the University in the direction which he had indicated. And now let him turn to the Bill. Did it do any of these things? Not one. What was the first thing he found in the present Bill? Why, it proposed to establish a new University; and he absolutely denied there was the least necessity for that. It was to be a new secular University apparently, established in a country where there were already two existing secular Universities. Let him ask why this new University was to be established? It appeared it was to be a kind of conduit-pipe or filter through which the interest of £1,500,000 of public money was to distributed amongst a large number of sectarian tea-cups. Great political pressure and chicanery would be brought to bear upon the Senate, and there would be a scramble for the money. If this matter was to be dealt with on the basis of endowments, and of setting up a purely Roman Catholic University, let them discuss the question on its merits. Do not let them have an ingenious scheme to filter away a large sum of money into denominational cups and saucers. It was a great mistake to introduce a Bill of this kind, because, if it did please the Roman Catholic hierarchy, it would only be because they thought that before many years were gone by they would be able to do with the Bill what they liked. The Senate of this University was to have a practically unlimited power of affiliating Colleges. Now, there was no part of the Bill of 1872 which was more attacked than the proposal of affiliating Colleges. It was attacked by nobody more vehemently than by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for the City of Oxford. In his speech he proposed a plan by which that part of the Bill could be got rid of in Committee. After describing it, he said— "In this way, they would get rid of the whole vexed question of affiliated Colleges, and of the denominational and undenominational prejudices against the Bill.”—[3 Hansard, ccxiv. 1630.] Sir Dominic Corrigan gave the experience both of the London University and of the Queen's University against the plan. What he (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) insisted upon was that whatever was done Parliament should know clearly and distinctly what the Colleges were which it was proposed to benefit. He objected altogether that £1,500,000 of public money should be scrambled for by unknown recipients. He did not wish to dwell too much upon details at that stage; but the House ought to observe that the clauses of this Bill were so drawn that such enormous benefits were proposed to be conferred upon these Colleges that no student would think of entering the University except through their doors; while a direct pecuniary bribe was offered to the youth of Ireland to abandon the old Universities and enter the new. Then he objected to the constitution of the Senate, which was mainly a nominated body, and would, he believed, become the creature of political intrigue and chicanery. That was another bad feature borrowed from the Bill of 1872. Now, as regarded endowment, he wanted to know what claim the Roman Catholic Colleges had to an endowment? Keble, and Hertford, and Selwyn, had not asked for a State endowment. Why did they not? Speaking of the question of endowments reminded him of what was proposed to be done by Her Majesty in Council with respect to a Northern University. They all knew that a few days ago a very large and influential deputation was received by the noble Duke the President of the Council (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon), and the noble Marquess the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (the Marquess of Salisbury), who was also Chancellor of the University of Oxford, and it was urged upon the noble Duke and the noble Marquess that it was necessary to establish in the North of England a new University. Had he had the honour of belonging to the North of England he would have been exceedingly proud to have joined that deputation. The object in view was a most excellent and admirable object, and he desired to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to the proposal in regard to the Colleges which was made by that influential deputation. Did that deputation propose that a sum of money should be given to Owen's College, which was the one College to be mentioned in the projected charter? The gentlemen who composed that deputation did not propose that Owen's College, or any other College which might come within the University as an affiliated body, should receive a handful of money out of the public funds; but they stated that they were prepared to endow the institution themselves. The gentlemen who composed the deputation of the other day did not ask for £1,500,000 of public money-all they asked for were for certain University and College privileges. Turn to a similar scene-turn to his own University. The University of Cambridge had gained of late honourable distinctions by attempting to extend the benefits of University Education outside its own limits by conducting examinations, and now by affiliating Colleges, and he had heard that a scheme for that purpose had been drawn up by the Syndicate, with the sanction of the greatest names of the University, which passed the Senate last week, and which was as certain to be acted upon as was any measure which might receive the sanction of the House in the course of the present Session. Was it proposed to give a sum of money out of the University funds to affiliated Colleges? All that was proposed was to confer upon any College or institution in the United Kingdom which chose to place itself in connection with the University of Cambridge certain facilities in regard to degrees, and a diminution in the number of terms of residence. From first to last in the case to which he was alluding there was not one single word about getting hold of University funds, still less at getting a pull at funds which were under the control of the State, or which were raised from the taxation of the country. They might plead their poverty; but Roman Catholicism was not a local or national religion peculiar to Ireland. Were they not constantly being told in home and foreign newspapers of the numerous and wealth converts who were flocking over to the Church of Rome? Why, there were half-a-dozen Roman Catholic noblemen who, if they would meet together to-morrow, would find it just as easy to endow a Roman Catholic College as the merchant princes of the North to endow the great institutions which were rising under their patronage. They might invite that generous Protestant Peer, Lord Portarlington, to join them. Such a course, surely, was better and nobler than coming to Parliament, in formá pauperis, for £1,500,000 of public money only recently taken from another denomina tion. He recollected, during the debates of 1873, that his noble Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who, being at that time Chief Secretary for Ireland, had a responsibility in this matter second only to that of the Prime Minister, speaking on this part of the question, said to their Councils any person who was in favour of the removal of the tests under which Roman Catholics suffered. He had been brought up to venerate his name; but he had not been brought up to wish to substitute one religious equality for another. He desired to do that which was just and right to the "The Protestants of Ireland used the mixed Catholics of Ireland, without doing that Colleges, but the Roman Catholics, for whom which would be unjust to the Protestants they were designed, had seen fit to disapprove of the United Kingdom. He believed them; that, however, was no reason why they that to pass this Bill would be to do that should not do what all others were free to do which would prove injurious to those establish their own Colleges and voluntarily endow them. Would anyone get up higher interests of education which rose and say that the Roman Catholics of Ireland above every sectarian difference, and were not prepared, or were not able, to endow which, he believed, would be absolutely Colleges for themselves? He believed they were ruined by any looking back upon the fully able, and that if once they could remove from their minds that fatal delusion which ap- evil past, and by any renewal of that peared to have taken possession of them, that principle of religious endowment, whesooner or later they would obtain a Parlia-ther concurrent or not, which would mentary endowment, they would endow a Roman Catholic College for themselves."-[3 Hansard, ccxiv. 1266-8.] which gave it, but even to the religious prove hurtful, not only to the State denomination which it was intended to benefit. Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "while this House recognises that the funds set free by the disestablishment of the Irish Church should be devoted to the benefit of the people of Ireland, provided they are not again applied to desirable to devote additional public funds to the support of any sectarian religion, it is not the further promotion of higher education in Ireland till adequate provision is first made for elementary teaching in that Country without aid from Imperial funds exceeding that given to other parts of the United Kingdom,"-(S&r George Campbell,) -instead thereof. He (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) believed that those words of the noble Marquess expressed the sound common sense of this question-that, in regard to matters of discipline, they should allow the Roman Catholics every single privilege which had been given to Protestant Episcopalianism, whether in England or in Ireland; but that, as regarded endowments, they should stand firmly upon those lines which had been adopted by the House of Commons-namely, that there should be no new endowments of any sectarian institution. They were told the other day by the noble Lord the Member for Waterford County (Lord Charles Beresford) that he was in favour of the en- Question proposed, "That the words. dowment of a Roman Catholic Univer-proposed to be left out stand part of the sity. He hoped that the noble Lord Question." would be consistent, and that when the Navy Estimates were under consideration he would explain the lines upon which Roman Catholic iron-clads and Protestant turret-ships should be built. He (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) believed that the one would not be more ridiculous or baneful than the other, so far as State endow-upon it as an auspicious omen, and hope ment was concerned. This was a question it will continue. I am sorry I am quite in which he had taken a great interest. unable to follow the noble Lord in the He had been always anxious to meet very exhaustive and able speech which the just demands of the Irish Roman he made; but, perhaps, it is fortunate Catholics. There was one member of for the fate of the Bill that I do not his family, of whom he preserved a re- know as much about the subject as the collection from his childhood, who had noble Lord, because another speech of passed the best years of his life out of the length would, perhaps, endanger the office because those who occupied the ultimate result on a Wednesday. To Throne in his country would not admit me the question is a very serious one Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice MR. KAVANAGH: Sir, I shall begin the few remarks I intend to make on the subject by congratulating the House, and thanking the noble Lord the Member for Calne (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) on the good humour which characterized the remarks he made. I look |