though the matter did not arise within, and was not connected with, his Depart ment. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR earnestly hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would continue to provide for The Army and Navy Lists being published under authority, and that these Lists would be kept better filled with information about the Naval and Military Services. He approved very highly of the excellent table in connection with the cost of stationery and printing done for the various branches of the Civil and Military Services. It was the best mode they had of keeping the expenditure of the Departments under control; and though it was clumsily prepared, and did not arrange the items under the heads in which they appeared in the Estimates, still it did enable hon. Members to compare the sums spent with the sums voted, and he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would continue to give the matter his attention. So far from discontinuing the list, the Secretary to the Treasury would do good service by endeavouring to make it approach more nearly to perfection by separating the cost of stationery from that of printing, and by an improved arrangement of the figures to connect the amounts with those in the audited accounts. He hoped in future the table would be published in the Appropriation Account, and they would then be able to compare the items in detail with the totals now shown in lump sums. He also asked why The Army List did not appear among the allowances hitherto given for compilation? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he could not explain the matter at that moment; but he would do so on the Report. With regard to the table, he was not very much encouraged to give it by the reception he had met with in that respect hitherto; but he certainly did not intend to discontinue it. MR. WHITWELL pointed out that although there was a Supplemental Vote in the spring, and although the changes at the Post Office had relieved that Department to some extent, yet there was again an increase in the charges of £4,000. He was quite sure his hon. Friend (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) would pay particular attention to this subject, and Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson the Department would certainly prove a great friend to the Treasury. He thoroughly approved of the present management of the prisons; but he should like to know whether the Stationery Department had charge of the printing in the prisons, or whether that expenditure was now conducted by and included in the cost of that Department? Another matter to which he wished to call attention was the management of The London Gazette. It appeared at the present time to be yielding a considerable profit to the Treasury; but he believed it would be extremely advantageous if the price of that publication were considerably reduced and the circulation largely increased. One portion of the paper which conduced largely to the profit was the advertisements; and, of course, the more extensively the paper was circulated the greater would be the income for advertisements, and the greater the profit, like all other undertakings of a similar kind, from the sale. In addition, as suggested by his hon. and gallant Friend, they would have the benefit that the public announcements in The Gazette would be more widely circulated and more easily got at by those who were interested in them. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON promised that attention should be given to these suggestions; but, at the same time, begged to point out that there was at the present time a very considerable profit from the advertisements in The Gazette, amounting last year to £31,214, which was certainly a considerable sum. MR. J. W. BARCLAY hoped something would also be done to reduce the price of the advertisements in The Gazette, which, at the present time, was a very serious tax on the mercantile community, who were obliged to put certain advertisements in the paper. SIR ANDREW LUSK thought a more reasonable price ought certainly to be asked for these advertisements. He found under letter J. that printing, binding, &c. had fallen off by £15,000. He wished to know the reason for that? Paper, also, cost £92,000. Was that bought by contract, or was it ordered from some person as a matter of course? He hoped they did not pay very much for the paper in the Library, for it was not very grand, and the pens were very bad, and the ink was something abominable. It stuck, and would not write. contract. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON | the lawns and grass, leaving only a very replied, that the paper was bought by small sum for the rest of the 1,400 acres. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE pointed out that, so far from there being any revenue from the Park, there was a deficit. Undoubtedly, any change that was made must be made by legislation, and that was why he and his Friends had not sought to call attention to the matter by Divisions; but he would urge the Government to consider whether such legislation ought not to take place. In this case they knew nothing of the expenditure. They only knew that every year there was an extraordinary deficit on Windsor Forest, which they were called upon to vote, without knowing at all how it was made up or why it arose. Vote agreed to. MR. J. W. BARCLAY asked if the contract extended over several years? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, these details did not belong to his particular Department, and he could not give the actual details of that particular contract; but there was a saving under the contract, as made by the Stationery Office, and, comparing the work done in previous years and the prices then paid with the present Estimate, there was a saving of several thousands of pounds. SIR ANDREW LUSK repeated his question as to the decrease in the Vote under the letter J. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON supposed that it arose from the fact that there had been less printing required in this year, as compared with last, for the prices paid for the work were the same, although the contract was now under consideration. Original Question put, and agreed to. (7.) £19,386, to complete the sum for the Woods, Forests, &c. Office. MR. RYLANDS said, some observations were made on this Vote about the management of Windsor Park, when it was previously before the Committee, and he now wished to ask whether the remarks then made had received consideration? Windsor Park ought certainly to be brought under public management as the far more economical way. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON replied, that he could only repeat what he said on the former occasion, that any alteration in the manner of managing the Park must be made by legislation. At the time when the Civil List was agreed to, this particular park was placed among the appanages of the Crown, on the condition that the revenue after the expenses had been paid should go into the Exchequer. He might remind the Committee that a great part of the expenditure on the Park was for the benefit of the public, who derived great enjoyment from its use. The real amount spent, after deducting what the maintenance of the roads, the lodges, &c., cost, was really nothing considerable. Something like £11,000 was paid for the maintenance of the roads and lodges, and £5,000 for (8.) £33,684, to complete the sum for the Works and Public Buildings Office. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR called attention to the large increase which had taken place within the past two years in the Vote for the Office of the Chief Commissioner of Works. Of course, the charges for an Establishment of this kind might be expected to vary; but they had already swelled up to an extent far beyond what appeared to be requisite for the additional work known to have been imposed on the Department. He again had to make complaints of the confused way in which these accounts were presented to Parliament, and now they found an increase of nearly 25 per cent in one small Department, which, remembering the dissatisfaction already existing in the minds of many hon. Members, could not be expected to pass without notice. The expenditure ought to be put more clearly before the Committee, so that they could understand the reason for these increases without running into mistakes. MR. GERARD NOEL explained that during the last few years several new Departments had been thrown on the Office of Works, such as the Inland Revenue, the Embassy and Consular Buildings abroad, and the Customs Departments. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR was at a loss to understand how that could increase the expenses in the Office to anything in the actual proportion that had taken place. A controlling Office like this ought to be able to take over duties without any such augmenta- | Treasury would give the Committee tion, nor of the kind as now shown. the assurance of his word, on which These duties, of course, might have in- they all placed the greatest reliance, creased the Vote for Public Buildings, but not necessarily the Office expenses. Besides, he believed these charges were first imposed in 1877-8, so that there was ground for a fair comparison, as these Revenue buildings were then inIcluded in the Estimates of this Office. MR. GERARD NOEL explained that last year the addition of the Customs Department involved the employment of a number of additional officers, and a surveyor to the Embassy and Consular Buildings had been appointed, whose salary was £1,000 a-year, besides his expenses. Vote agreed to. (9.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £19,700, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st of March 1880, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services." MR. RYLANDS moved the reduction of the Vote by £5,000, on the broad ground that he protested against it altogether, and wished to see it struck off the Estimates. They also had £10,000 charged on the Consolidated Fund in addition, making £25,000 voted annually for Secret Service money. The greater part of it, he believed, was spent by the Foreign Office, although a certain amount was spent by the Colonial Office. He had called attention, in former years, to the way in which this fund was misappropriated, by being applied to purposes not contemplated by Parliament at the time the money was voted. In consequence, some of the abuses which then existed had been removed; but still he was by no means prepared to admit that this fund was now expended in an entirely satisfactory manner. In fact, it was utterly impossible for the Government to justify an expenditure of £20,000 a-year on Secret Service. The sum asked was either very much too much, or very much too small. He had a very strong opinion that part of it was spent in grants to widows of Consuls. [Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON dissented.] The hon. Gentleman, he saw, shook his head; but, then, that hon. Gentleman knew no more of the expenditure than he (Mr. Rylands) did. Indeed, if the Secretary to the General Sir George Balfour ex that he knew all about the expenditure of this money, and that, as a public man and an officer of the Crown, he was satisfied with the expenditure, he would withdraw his Amendment. But he ventured to say that not only did the Financial Secretary not know, but the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs did not know, anything about it; for, as they heard some time ago, it was only the Permanent Under Secretary who was permitted to know what became of the money. That had been proved in that House some years ago, when it was said that a certain purpose, for the then Under Secretary sum of money had been spent for a certain of State for Foreign Affairs got up and denied it. It was afterwards proved to be a true statement, and then it was discovered that the Under Secretary of State denied that it had been spent, because he had been told to deny it, and that all the time he knew nothing whatever of the matter. He (Mr. Rylands) did not think it was proper for the Committee to be asked to vote these sums without some planation of them being given; certainly, payments to widows of Consuls had been made out of this fund, which was not right, for a Vote was already made for that purpose, and it should not be secretly increased in this way without the knowledge of the House. If, however, the money was really spent in bribing people at foreign Courts to bring information to our Ambassadors, then he could only say that it was a very contemptible method of employing the public money. For many years past, at any rate, it had not succeeded; for he did not believe there was a single instance in which the Government had obtained priority of information by this Secret Service money. It was notorious that the Government were the last persons to learn what was happening, and very often, indeed, the Government did not inform themselves of what appeared in the papers, in order that when questioned they might answer that they knew nothing about any such statements. Possibly, there might have been a time when there was some advantage gained from Secret Service money; but it now seemed to him entirely out of date. Another objection he had to the Vote | pended had not come up to the grant in was that the Government were asking recent years, the variation had not been for more than they knew they would such as to justify a large variation. He require. For several years past, unless thought the Vote did justify the reduche was mistaken, they had only spent tion he had made; and, without claiming about £13,000, and the balance had the possession of any knowledge, and been returned into the Treasury. There without revealing any secrets, he did was a great disadvantage in giving Votes think that this particular amount would for more money than might reasonably be sufficient. be expected to be required. The Foreign Office should not put down a sum which there was no reasonable probability would be wanted. Even, therefore, if this reduction of the Vote were assented to, the amount voted would be in excess of what had been required for the last few years. Motion made, and Question proposed, “That a sum not exceeding £14,100 be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."-(Mr. Rylands.) SIR ANDREW LUSK was altogether dissatisfied with this Vote. When he first knew it, 14 years ago, it stood at £30,000. After a great deal of talking, he and his Friends brought it down to £25,000; and now it had dropped still lower, to £23,000. Last year there was a good deal of excitement in Europe, and, vice money was spent; and, therefore, he he supposed, a great deal of Secret Sershould like to know how it was that a still further reduction was made? They were told, too, that only £13,000 was spent; and, therefore, he did not see why the Government should ask for £23,000. By perseverance they had already considerably reduced the Vote, and he did not see why it should not come down still further. In have been required, it would have been last year; yet, even in that year, they found that the expenditure had fallen short by some £10,000. Therefore, it would be far more scientific to take a lower sum. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, that, although he was amused, as he generally was on the discussion of this Vote, he could not sympathize with the ingenious attempt of his hon. Friend SIR CHARLES W. DILKE pointed to extract from him information which, out, that the argument of his hon. Friend if given, would practically destroy the the Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) Vote. If he possessed all the informa- was that the money was not spent, and, tion on this subject that would enable therefore, ought not to be asked for. As him to answer the challenge that had a mere matter of scientific administration, been made to him, he would be the last if the full sum were never required, the man to acknowledge that he was so, and Vote should be put at a lower sum. to testify it by making certain statements the present state of Europe, if ever there to the Committee. The justification he was a year when they might have exhad to offer for the Vote was the justi-pected that all the money voted would fication which had been offered by every Secretary to the Treasury who had gone before him-that these amounts were distributed to the different Departments, and that the head of the Department was responsible for the proper administration of it. Whatever might have been the practice in times past, he could renew the assurance that had been given for the last two or three years, that none of the money was now employed in supplementing the salaries of officers abroad or in this country. The hon. Gentleman would see that the amount had been slightly reduced from what it had been in previous years; and he could assure the Committee that it was his anxious wish to reduce this Vote to the lowest amount at which it could possibly be put, taking a fair average. Although he admitted the amount ex His hon. Friend (Mr. Rylands) had already reduced this Vote by some £6,000 or £7,000, and on the principle on which half the fines were given to the informer, he ought to have had a present from the Government of some £3,000 or £4,000. MR. GOLDNEY reminded the Committee that the extension of telegraphic communication made the transmission of intelligence more expensive than formerly. It would certainly be exceedingly unwise to cut down the Vote in such a manner that in a moment of pressure there might not be enough required to meet an emergency. 'MR. O'CONNOR POWER said, he | last 10 or 15 years. ["Hear, hear!"] regarded it as a good sign that the con- Well, the Committee surely did not want sciences of English Members were being a man to fall away as he grew older. He stirred on the question of the Secret should have thought the House of ComService money. If they were as well mons was old enough to set its face acquainted as he (Mr. O'Connor Power) against Queen's Plates, or anything of was with Irish affairs, they would, at the kind. In his opinion, they ought not least, know why so large an expendi- to countenance such sports. The public ture was necessary, though they could and the people of Scotland were alive to not justify it. They frequently heard these things, and, as a rule, did not that the Irish were disloyal; but he patronize such folly. If the money supposed few people were aware that a had been spent to encourage the breedportion of this Secret Service money ing of good farm-horses, he would not was spent in manufacturing disloyalty have had a word to say. But he was in Ireland. The reason why some of sure if the Committee could see, as the Irish Members had not called the he had often to see in the course of attention of the House to the matter his magisterial experience, the troubles, this year was because they had fre- and difficulties, and evils which came quently done so before with such very from racing, they would put their faces little effect that they had almost sunk against any Votes of this sort. They had into the slough of despair. The time already the best shorthorns and the best had arrived, however, for the beginning sheep in the world without any assistof hope, when they saw the consciences ance from the State. The State gave of English Members being awakened. no prizes for reaping machines, and he There could be no doubt that this was did not see why it should offer prizes the most objectionable Vote in the whole for racing. Why should they be asked Estimates. Time after time explana- to promote racing, which led to so tions had been demanded of the Vote, much evil? He did manage to get the and they had never been given by any- Vote done away with some years ago; one who occupied the position of Secre- but some Scotch Members were weak tary to the Treasury. As one who was in the knees, and were so afraid of acquainted with the employment of some losing ground with their constituents of this money in Ireland, as he had seen that they got it restored. What was the facts revealed in police courts in the good of a race-horse? For his Ireland, when political prisoners were part, he did not see the use of improving being tried, he felt it his duty to pro- the breed of this kind of animal, because, test against the money being voted in after all, a race-horse was only an exthe absence of satisfactory explanations. aggerated greyhound. He regarded it Question put. as of no use whatever. Bringing the matter to the test of utility, what was Members who had had experience of the use of racing? He hoped hon. that gentlemanly pastime would tell him. Let them produce some tangible and good results from the spending of the money, and he might be induced to alter his opinion. The Committee divided: - Ayes 59; Noes 155: Majority 96.-(Div. List, No. 87.) Original Question put, and agreed to. (10.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £5,246, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Exchequer, Scotland, of certain Officers in Scotland, and other Charges formerly on the Hereditary Revenue. SIR ANDREW LUSK moved the reduction of the Vote by £218, being the estimate of amount contributed in Scotland for Queen's Plates. He had moved this over and over again for the Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £5,028, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Exche quer, Scotland, of certain Officers in Scotland, and other Charges formerly on the Hereditary Revenue."-(Sir Andrew Lusk.) SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he confessed that while the con |